Why isn't ICF construction more common?

[kenny]

I laughed a bit when some of the neighbors mentioned that their houses were built so quickly and that there is no reason this guy's house should take so long. Meanwhile those mcmansions are built just barely at ABC specs while this guy's house will outlast them all.

With that said, there is no reason buddy can't finish up some of the exterior and remove the fence while he takes his time on the interior. No reason to annoy the neighbors even more even though he's technically not doing anything wrong.

[RawB8figure]

I would consider Bone Structure building system over IFC.
Its steel, costs approx. 35% more in building materials than timber.
Requires trained installer and more upfront designing as the system is shipped and screwed together, no cutting/welding.

http://bonestructure.ca/en/

[C_Dave45]

11 years...ridiculous. I don't care how meticulous he is, his house will be no better built than any other "luxury home" out there. He won't even finish that thing before he either gives up or drops dead. The money he's wasted on carrying costs, he couldve had it finished properly by a skilled builder.
I'd be pissed if I was his neighbor too. I can just imagine working for him. "No that slightly grey stone should be replaced with this slightly greyER stone..AFTER it's been already set". There's a name for that condition and it's called OCD

[oz388]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
I'm not in the construction industry, but it always seemed to me that Insulated Concrete Form construction (ICF) should be catching on more than it has.
Benefits include better sound insulation from the outside, better thermal insulation and the possibility of better durability (debatable and not fully studied).

For construction industry cost is on top of everything. Concrete itself is dirt cheap, however the man hour required for concrete works is much higher compare to lumber and structural steel construction. Therefore in north american using concrete is considered extra "luxury" even oil/gas industry can not afford concrete everywhere these days. But if you go to China you will see all the buildings are made of concrete from bottom to top because labor cost is neglectable to the builders there.

[Darell_n]

If you look at European countries like Germany and Switzerland everything is also floor to ceiling concrete. And this is way before cheap EU labour. Canada is a disposable society, that's the problem. We haven't figured out that building houses from sticks and paper won't pan out in the long run.

[englishbob]

Amvic has just taken over the old servacold building in Ogden I think.
They are the forms I used when I built my place.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Darell_n
If you look at European countries like Germany and Switzerland everything is also floor to ceiling concrete. And this is way before cheap EU labour. Alberta is a disposable society, that's the problem. We haven't figured out that building houses from sticks and paper won't pan out in the long run.

Fixed that for you, because there's a whole lot of pretty solid old brick and/or concrete building/houses out east.

[frozenrice]

Originally posted by oz388
Concrete itself is dirt cheap

I'm just curious what is considered cheap for concrete?

Although concrete construction is definitely a more solid/stable form of construction, it also has some limitations in terms of how workable it is. Once the concrete is set, there is no chance to move/add a window or toilet drain etc.

When comparing construction methods here to other places around the world, you also have to consider climate. Canada has a very short "construction" season. To do concrete work during cold weather seasons though not impossible, but is also not feasible in terms of cost/time benefit. Concrete cures best and quickest when it has heat. The colder it is the longer, it takes to properly cure, which results in longer construction schedules. From a contractors perspective, you lose money in overhead costs for everyday your project sits idle. You can speed up the process, but that is where the costs come into play. You can tarp the project and use gas heaters and add tons of accelerator/additives but those just add to the cost.

Originally posted by C_Dave45
11 years...ridiculous. The money he's wasted on carrying costs, he couldve had it finished properly by a skilled builder.

I thought about that as well. Renewing his building permit for 11 years? Property taxes? Utilities? Insurance? I'm assuming he has to have cash. I can't imagine taking out a loan or line of credit to pay for this. Talk about a waste of money. Some people are just stubborn and stupid and too proud to admit it.

[Darell_n]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


Fixed that for you, because there's a whole lot of pretty solid old brick and/or concrete building/houses out east.

No, I mean practically all of them are concrete. I think it may even be law, I'll have to ask my Swiss friend but she may not know that one. (residential)

[C_Dave45]

So just a pictorial re-cap:

This was over 3 years into his project: (1 to 1 1/2 years, tops, for a house like this)


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And this is how the community looked at the time:


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This is how the community has looked for the past 3 years


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And this is how his project still looks:


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And the exterior is the QUICKEST part of the project!!! Now he's getting to the real intricate stuff. you know...the parts that take the longest:


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[oz388]

Originally posted by frozenrice


I'm just curious what is considered cheap for concrete?

"Concrete is made up of three basic components: water, aggregate (rock, sand, or gravel) and Portland cement..."

so which one of these 3 elements aren't cheap compare to other raw materials for construction?

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by oz388


"Concrete is made up of three basic components: water, aggregate (rock, sand, or gravel) and Portland cement..."

so which one of these 3 elements aren't cheap compare to other raw materials for construction?

And yet strangely, concrete goes for well over $100 per cubic metre. Do you know how many metres would be required to build an entire house out of concrete? Now add the labour costs. (At roughly $80-120 per man hour) Just for placing. Plus all the other trades that have to change their entire way of doing their job. Hvac, plumbing, electrical, drywall, stud work, etc, etc, etc. It's not feasible in this part of the world. No one would pay for a house like that.

[frozenrice]

Originally posted by oz388


"Concrete is made up of three basic components: water, aggregate (rock, sand, or gravel) and Portland cement..."

so which one of these 3 elements aren't cheap compare to other raw materials for construction?

Originally posted by C_Dave45

And yet strangely, concrete goes for well over $100 per cubic metre. Do you know how many metres would be required to build an entire house out of concrete? Now add the labour costs. (At roughly $80-120 per man hour) Just for placing. Plus all the other trades that have to change their entire way of doing their job. Hvac, plumbing, electrical, drywall, stud work, etc, etc, etc. It's not feasible in this part of the world. No one would pay for a house like that.

Those materials may be dirt cheap in raw, but what about digging that stuff up, processing it (sifting for different sizes of gravel), transporting them to one location to mix it into concrete? It's not like there is a quarry here in town where everything is perfectly and readily divided for use. Also , Portland Cement isn't exactly a basic material. It's limestone that essentially heated and crushed into powder and mixed with other chemicals (ie flyash) to make it into cement powder.

Dave, FYI a 32MPA, CSA ready mix concrete goes for well over $200/m3 delivered. Plus, any accelerants, enviro fees, fuel surcharges etc. A large home (2500sqft) footprint will cost around $15-20,000 just for the concrete alone for the footings and walls, never mind the flatwork like the basement slab, garage slab and driveway.

[oz388]

Originally posted by C_Dave45

And yet strangely, concrete goes for well over $100 per cubic metre. Do you know how many metres would be required to build an entire house out of concrete? Now add the labour costs. (At roughly $80-120 per man hour) Just for placing. Plus all the other trades that have to change their entire way of doing their job. Hvac, plumbing, electrical, drywall, stud work, etc, etc, etc. It's not feasible in this part of the world. No one would pay for a house like that.

In my early post i said concrete is extremely expensive method of building things in north american not because of the material cost but due to the labor. Your $100 per cubic meter is probably local quotes for small jobs, already mixed and delivered by truck, so I assume some labor cost is already priced in. In general cement should cost about $50-$60 USD per metric ton and is good for over 3 cubic meter of finished concrete; you can figure out the cost of water and aggregate by yourself.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by frozenrice


Dave, FYI a 32MPA, CSA ready mix concrete goes for well over $200/m3 delivered. Plus, any accelerants, enviro fees, fuel surcharges etc. A large home (2500sqft) footprint will cost around $15-20,000 just for the concrete alone for the footings and walls, never mind the flatwork like the basement slab, garage slab and driveway.

Cool. Thanks for that info.

[frozenrice]

Originally posted by oz388


In my early post i said concrete is extremely expensive method of building things in north american not because of the material cost but due to the labor. Your $100 per cubic meter is probably local quotes for small jobs, already mixed and delivered by truck, so I assume some labor cost is already priced in. In general cement should cost about $50-$60 USD per metric ton and is good for over 3 cubic meter of finished concrete; you can figure out the cost of water and aggregate by yourself.

Typically when you see prices by the meter for concrete it is for product only (delivered). The labour to place the concrete is usually on top of that. The $200/m3 is the general price for residential ready mix. I'm not sure what it would be for commercial/civil jobs but I'd assume it would be slightly less depending on total volume of concrete needed.

[TomcoPDR]

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Bump!

Thought of this thread when I read about this guy building his home out in Springbank. 11 years and counting. Pretty solid house he's building with ICF, but man over a decade and still going. Hope he lives long enough to enjoy it!

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...s-and-counting

Good to see he’s only got railings on the porch to do

[JRSC00LUDE]

Those exterior finishes are completely out of date.

[TomcoPDR]

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Those exterior finishes are completely out of date.

Will he update them, brick by brick

[ExtraSlow]

That dude is not really a good example of how an ICF home would normally be built. He's closer to what @eblend is doing, hand-built, or self-built home with a lot of unique features.

Cool bump though. I still think ICF is a really smart construction technology, very well suited to harsh climates.