De-Regulation of Power, a failed experiment....COST Albertan's $20 billion

[Toma]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...ment-1.2724161

"We don't have enough competition, we do have incidents of companies working together, and we do have economic withholding,” she said.

This week, with the electricity grid running at near capacity, two power plants went unexpectedly out of operation.

Keith Provost, a retired senior operating officer with Alberta Power, said Alberta's deregulation of electricity has proven to be a failed experiment.

"You simply cannot market electricity,” he said.

By Provost’s calculation, it has cost Alberta consumers $20 billion since 2001.

[M.alex]

You gets a few days of high prices and everybody starts whining.

Why no mention of January, March, April, May and June having been very low priced from robust supply?

Why no mention that when peak summer demand was being set this week wind ouput was virtually nil? Oh, that's right, gotta blame the big bad coal plants and deregulation.............

[ZenOps]

Scotty I need moar powah!

Really though, is the ultimate goal to have the absolute cheapest power for the consumer? Isn't it already cheap enough in Alberta.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/nature...cientists-warn

Personally I think they should be making a little bit extra, and upgrading the entire grid to be EMP armageddon level solar flare and nukeproof (no cheap or small task)

[clem24]

Originally posted by M.alex
You gets a few days of high prices and everybody starts whining.

Why no mention of January, March, April, May and June having been very low priced from robust supply?

Why no mention that when peak summer demand was being set this week wind ouput was virtually nil? Oh, that's right, gotta blame the big bad coal plants and deregulation.............

At first I agreed with your view point but remember this is about electricity to the end consumer, not the producers. As a producer, you were basically bleeding cash in those months. So companies like Enmax are still profiting like mad during those low priced months, and I think that's what the issue is.

[D. Dub]

Not to mention all of the fuck-twit energy salespeople ignoring my no solicitors door
sign.

[Cos]

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[codetrap]

^ I really wish we had a "Like" or "Agreed" button for posts.

[ipeefreely]

Originally posted by Toma
By Provost’s calculation, it has cost Alberta consumers $20 billion since 2001.

I'd say business that use lots of power are the biggest losers with how unstable the power market is.... they're shutting down/leaving the province... because they have to pay the market rate and can't have contracts.

Consumers get hit with a higher bill a months later or not at all if they have a contract (but might be paying more overall because of it).

For example Alberta Newsprint Company outside of Whitecourt uses as much power as Red Deer... they shut down production when prices spike... that's a big kick to the nuts! (this was back in '02 they might not do this anymore but probably still do).

There's a steel fabrication plant in Edmonton that's said many time they'll shut down because the fluctuation are so big they can't predict costs because they'll never know how much they have to pay for power.

It's not hard to wonder why there are so many planned colocation plants in the works... won't take long pay off the capital cost to build the plant when you can feed power back into the grid @ $999 kW/h when demand spikes...

Stable prices are good for everyone... unstable prices are only good for the producers...

Oh ya, you can thank Ralph Klein for deregulating the power market!

Originally posted by Cos
IMO best way to have it be the cheapest is to regulate it but be 100% controlled. Expenses + profit. Not as much manipulation if you have a regulator look at every one. This is how the wire owners operate and it seems much better. We are always a lot more cautious with our spending because if the government decides it is not able to be capitalized, we eat the costs.

I agree!

[ExtraSlow]

some form of variable pricing is a good thing IMO. It's more effective than those stupid messages asking me to turn off my AC in the evenings.
If power was 2x more expensive from 5-10pm, maybe I'd make a solid effort to reduce my usage in those times, but it isn't, and I don't. I'm not altruistic, I act out of self interest, and I suspect most people do the same.

[triplep]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
some form of variable pricing is a good thing IMO. It's more effective than those stupid messages asking me to turn off my AC in the evenings.
If power was 2x more expensive from 5-10pm, maybe I'd make a solid effort to reduce my usage in those times, but it isn't, and I don't. I'm not altruistic, I act out of self interest, and I suspect most people do the same.

I don't think it would effect me to much if it was 2x more expensive. Regardless, I would be still paying those damn additional fees, so why not consume consume if you keep getting charged those fees regardless.

In the whole scheme of things, the actual electricity costs are low, it is just all the other fees that they tack on that make it seem expensive to the end user.

[ExtraSlow]

That's a good point about fees. They seem to be worth more than the power I consume.
I think the per kWh charge should be inclusive of fees, that would also create more incentive to save energy.

[Sugarphreak]

..

[avishal26]

Originally posted by triplep



I don't think it would effect me to much if it was 2x more expensive. Regardless, I would be still paying those damn additional fees, so why not consume consume if you keep getting charged those fees regardless.

In the whole scheme of things, the actual electricity costs are low, it is just all the other fees that they tack on that make it seem expensive to the end user.

I know! I pay more for usage fees most months than actual usage. If I stopped using all electricity, I still have to pay about $100 a month for all sorts of fees! (elec. and gas)

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by ipeefreely


For example Alberta Newsprint Company outside of Whitecourt uses as much power as Red Deer... they shut down production when prices spike... that's a big kick to the nuts! (this was back in '02 they might not do this anymore but probably still do).

They sure do, I was there last week and they were shut down due to power.

This thread is kind of funny though... say all of the same things about oil production and see what happens :p

[Cos]

.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by ipeefreely
For example Alberta Newsprint Company outside of Whitecourt uses as much power as Red Deer... they shut down production when prices spike... that's a big kick to the nuts! (this was back in '02 they might not do this anymore but probably still do).

It's interesting that you chose this example, because my brother used to be an accountant there, and he was directly responsible for this. How it worked according to him, is that ANC would buy X amount of power on a contract at Y price, and they would typically run at night, when the power was cheap. Then what they'd do is they'd shut down during the day, and sell their contracted X amount of power back into the grid for a profit. It's a point of fact actually, that ANC has continually LOST money on producing paper for newsprint, and it was the electricity trading that essentially made their profits. Not to mention that they had some of their own generating capacity, and from what I understand they sold power back into the grid for a nice tidy profit. To that end, they're currently in the process of building a 65MW NG power plant...

[M.alex]

Originally posted by codetrap
It's interesting that you chose this example, because my brother used to be an accountant there, and he was directly responsible for this. How it worked according to him, is that ANC would buy X amount of power on a contract at Y price, and they would typically run at night, when the power was cheap. Then what they'd do is they'd shut down during the day, and sell their contracted X amount of power back into the grid for a profit. It's a point of fact actually, that ANC has continually LOST money on producing paper for newsprint, and it was the electricity trading that essentially made their profits. Not to mention that they had some of their own generating capacity, and from what I understand they sold power back into the grid for a nice tidy profit. To that end, they're currently in the process of building a 65MW NG power plant...

they already built it.

[codetrap]

They finished it? News for me.

[Toma]

Privatizing any ESSENTIAL part of life that actually MAKES money is fucking retarded.

What sense does it make?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Toma
Privatizing any ESSENTIAL part of life that actually MAKES money is fucking retarded.

What sense does it make?

Theoretically, private businesses can find efficiency that a government ops won't.

Realistically, it doesn't especially when bounded by a bunch of rules and regulations and ends up costing more for the same service.

This is same for all the push for outsourcing. It doesn't necessary save you money. At best outsourcing will relieve you of future liabilities and be a bit more flexible on the books.