Cecil the lion

[Sugarphreak]

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[Env-Consultant]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


If you are done your wild presumptuous rant, I was very specifically addressing this quote with my post:

DU Just happens to be a very good overall model for sustainability, rather than idiotic hippy ideals railed off by armchair internet warriors that don't work

Wild presumptions? We are discussing the killing of a lion in Africa, someone posts about killing being counter-intuitive to conservation, and you throw out DU as an example? What did you expect? Praise for making such a genius connection? DU methods fall apart when corruption and lack of monitoring come into play - e.g. in places like Africa.

Idiotic hippy ideals? I don't think it's "idiotic" or "hippy", nor do I feel like an "internet warrior" for pointing out how sad and ridiculous it is that this is where we are at as a society. We can't stop something horrible from happening, so let's charge money for it . Doesn't work well in Africa.

[Sugarphreak]

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[Env-Consultant]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Well you can't protect them with hopes and dreams

Hunters taking ownership of population sustainability is pretty much one of the most effective ways to help conservation.

I'm not disagreeing with that. The situations are just vastly and uniquely different. Not trying to get into a pissing match with you - just took your comment to be directly related to Africa. Too much BS and crap going on there to replicate the model. Even DU is far from perfect - donations and projects come in many shapes and forms, and from many different industry donors.

[l/l/rX]

I posted this on my friends FB post.

"By no means am I condoning the killing of Cecil, but the reality is, if you pay your dues you can hunt lion or any other trophy animal as long as you have the money to obtain a permit, these guides just fucked up and hunted the wrong, protected lion. To obtain a permit to hunt lions, polar bears in Canada, or any other trophy animal, everything get's approved by the government. Soo, really who's to blame here? None of the articles state that his hunting permit was fake, forged or whatever. Think about that for a min.

The hunt itself wasn't illegal (until someone can dig me up an article saying his permits were fake), but his aim sure sucked fucking balls, having chased the lion down for 40 hours, which in that itself should be a crime for sure, and the fact that they tried to smash up his gps collar and hide that up afterwards.

My point is, if you guys don't like trophy hunting, it's not the hunters you should be mad at, it's the gov't that are handing out legal permits to allow this to happen."

edit: from the brief research i've done on the internet, seems like the standard way to lure lion in for a hunting excursion is to hang a carcass of the back of a truck. So that seems legal, as it's posted on every african hunting website that I visited. But for a "seasoned" hunter to be that far off in aim for the lion to put up a fight for 40 hours....ehh

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by l/l/rX
I posted this on my friends FB post.

"By no means am I condoning the killing of Cecil, but the reality is, if you pay your dues you can hunt lion or any other trophy animal as long as you have the money to obtain a permit, these guides just fucked up and hunted the wrong, protected lion. To obtain a permit to hunt lions, polar bears in Canada, or any other trophy animal, everything get's approved by the government. Soo, really who's to blame here? None of the articles state that his hunting permit was fake, forged or whatever. Think about that for a min.

The hunt itself wasn't illegal (until someone can dig me up an article saying his permits were fake), but his aim sure sucked fucking balls, having chased the lion down for 40 hours, which in that itself should be a crime for sure, and the fact that they tried to smash up his gps collar and hide that up afterwards.

My point is, if you guys don't like trophy hunting, it's not the hunters you should be mad at, it's the gov't that are handing out legal permits to allow this to happen."

Read the posts and known information. It was illegal, the lion was illegally baited off a reservation and the two guides have been charged with poaching.

The main issue at contention is whether the American knew what they were doing was illegal. He is pleading ignorance, while others say it was obviously illegal and he knew it.

This hunt was deemed illegal by the government that hands out trophy permits.

[l/l/rX]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


Read the posts and known information. It was illegal, the lion was illegally baited off a reservation and the two guides have been charged with poaching.

The main issue at contention is whether the American knew what they were doing was illegal. He is pleading ignorance, while others say it was obviously illegal and he knew it.

This hunt was deemed illegal by the government that hands out trophy permits.

Edit: I won't disagree with you on how the animal was hunted was illegal.

The hunt was legal, permits were obtained, they just killed a lion that was protected. Your issue with whether or not the american knew what he was doing was illegal in terms of bringing the lion out of bounds or whatever... i don't think they have that boundary clearly identified TBH. That blame would be on the guides. Everything after that, yea he fucked up.

The hunt itself, getting the excursion rolling was legal though, unless someone can prove me wrong otherwise.

Edit: MY MAIN point is... as stated in my original post, wouldn't be here if the permit wasn't granted by the GOV'T.

[chkolny541]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


Read the posts and known information. It was illegal, the lion was illegally baited off a reservation and the two guides have been charged with poaching.

The main issue at contention is whether the American knew what they were doing was illegal. He is pleading ignorance, while others say it was obviously illegal and he knew it.

This hunt was deemed illegal by the government that hands out trophy permits.

People keep saying that luring the animal off the reserve was illegal. Could somebody please link an article specifically saying its illegal to do so in Zimbabwe? Its shady as HELL, very very scummy, no doubt about that ,but I also cant find anything that specifically states its illegal.


"A source familiar with the situation, who wishes to remain unnamed, says big cats may be lured out of protected areas into hunting concessions with bait. "

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com...sport-hunting/


My personal understanding of the case is that the only illegal thing the guide (Theo Bronkhorst) did was not secure proper tags.

[sexualbanana]

Can someone explain to me what one of these baited hunts look like?

I drag a carcass of something behind my truck for awhile until a lion comes.
How far away is this carcass from my truck?
A lion comes and starts gnawing away at the carcass.
Assuming the line is like 10ft away, I sit in the back of my truck with my bow ready to shoot.
While the lion is busy eating, I fire a bow at him

Is that right? Because that seems to be the picture being painted by a lot of people.

[codetrap]

.

[SmAcKpOo]

Originally posted by l/l/rX



Edit: MY MAIN point is... as stated in my original post, wouldn't be here if the permit wasn't granted by the GOV'T.

If there wasn't a demand for this sort of thing then the government wouldn't be issuing permits.

[rage2]

Originally posted by SmAcKpOo
If there wasn't a demand for this sort of thing then the government wouldn't be issuing permits.

If there wasn't a demand for this sort of thing then the government would be issuing permits a lot cheaper than $50k.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by SmAcKpOo


If there wasn't a demand for this sort of thing then the government wouldn't be issuing permits.

Without the money and jobs created by the hunting industry, there would be less land for these animals, there would be less of them and there would be more poaching and illegal trade of animals/parts.

People might like to think that it is "easy" to raise the equivalent money, but the fact is it isn't. The guy paying $50k to go hunt a lion isn't going to just give them $50k randomly and stay home. They raised $350k in one night by auctioning off the right to hunt a rhino that was practically dead at the time, how much time do you think it would take to raise the equivalent sum by using traditional fundraising?

[rx7boi]

http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/...ampaign=buffer

Talks about how trophy hunting is financially viable and even plays a certain role in conservation.

Proof that there are ways to use human greed to do good.

[blitz]

Originally posted by FraserB


Without the money and jobs created by the hunting industry, there would be less land for these animals, there would be less of them and there would be more poaching and illegal trade of animals/parts.

Only the government came back and said that no tickets were issued for the hunt, so that $50k was just pocketed by the guides and landowner, who have been charged with illegal poaching.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by blitz


Only the government came back and said that no tickets were issued for the hunt, so that $50k was just pocketed by the guides and landowner, who have been charged with illegal poaching.

In this case, the process was abused by the guides and they broke the law at the expense of both the park and their client.

It doesn't change the fact that the trophy hunting industry in Africa is worth north of $200 million dollars and 10,000 jobs. Or the resurgence in rhino numbers in South Africa as a result of the government issuing permits to hunt them.

Either way, 99% of people unhappy with this are merely bandwagon jumpers looking for the latest social media drama to feel outraged about. After this dies down, they'll go back to whatever they were doing before and not care nearly as much about the poaching that occurs every day.

[sexualbanana]

To Rage's earlier point about outing the dentist....

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/30/9074865...er-mob-justice

[max_boost]

Originally posted by FraserB


Either way, 99% of people unhappy with this are merely bandwagon jumpers looking for the latest social media drama to feel outraged about. After this dies down, they'll go back to whatever they were doing before and not care nearly as much about the poaching that occurs every day.

[Env-Consultant]

Originally posted by codetrap
You're funny. You accuse them of being corrupt, then go to comment that they can easily raise money.. in a place where the average guy makes like a dollar a day. But they'll definitely take outside donations and use them appropriately because they're not corrupt at all... You're not thinking. You're emotionally reacting.

Seems kindof the crux here.. It's not our society. Different society, different values.


As for the rest of it.. it's all pitchforks and torches and let's lynch him. Nobody's thinking really, they're all just out for blood because it's the internet cause of the day and nobody really cares of the legality of it. Next week they'll be out for blood from some other poor sap over some other popular injustice.

The money raised would not be doled out and managed by their government - obviously it would not be a lump sum given to their government. Work with external organizations would be required. I didn't say I had all the answers - it would be a huge undertaking with an extremely large number of checks and balances. So yes, I was actually thinking, but I wasn't planning on laying out a 50 point plan for people who can't think passed step 1. Very difficult undertaking, but completely possible IMO. Giving money directly to some of the leaders in Africa would likely result in it being pocketed.... something I did not suggest in any way/shape/form.

It's not a different society - the dentist and many other trophy hunters come from seemingly advanced societies. As you said, many people in Africa male <$1/day, while members of our society take advantage of that to pillage their biological resources.

With respect to the lynch mob - yes, far worse things are going on in Syria, Isreal/Palestinian, etc. - however, many people have a hard time identifying (not that I agree with this) with other distant societies. I studied charismatic animals and the raising of funds for the most charstmatic animals in the world for a year about 6 years ago - the fact of the matter is that people see them as completely helpless and are typically willing to donate to protect them. Yes, they evoke an emotional response, but I wouldn't say that I wasn't against trophy hunting prior to this event. As I stated earlier, I haven't spoken to someone I know in years since learning the went to Africa and bagged a pile of animals - does it help much? No, but I'd rather not associate with someone I consider to be in need of serious psychological help. The fact remains that many of us believe it is wrong and have believed that for as long as we can remember. Elitist, egotistical, and just plain pathetic.

So, wonderful attempt at undermining anything I said and trying to sound reasonable, but telling someone they're funny, emotionally reacting, and not thinking is a super disrespectful.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by rx7boi
http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/...ampaign=buffer

Talks about how trophy hunting is financially viable and even plays a certain role in conservation.

Proof that there are ways to use human greed to do good.

Conservation is boots on the ground. Ducks Unlimited, while it has flaws, actually has hunters with boots on the ground doing something voluntarily. I spent a summer out east with the hunting side of my family and every weekend they would take me out with them while they moved duck nests to better locations, removed illegal traps etc. Tended to the environment.

Just throwing 50k at a commonly corrupt service in a commonly corrupt government is no way to conserve anything. To hell with the land, the dude weakened the species. Took out a breeding lion and his cubs will follow shortly if not already. The weaker lion will do the fucking now. Keep that up and nobody will want to hunt them because a mountain lion will be more impressive.

It's exploiting the animals. Does it inject cash into conservation? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. And that's the problem. Too much corruption.

A better solution would be for the humans that live there to stop breeding more humans into an unsustainable environment. That's really the root problem here.