Retail Location for a Cafe in Calgary

[zimba]

Hi,

We are three partners who are looking to bring in an international chain of cafe to Calgary - we understand that market is in recession and it will be hard to start a new business.

However we are eyeing Mission area and 17th Ave SW as possible locations for opening of the first store in Alberta.

Do you guys have any idea how much would be he rent as we have noticed that base rent is around $45-50 with additional Op Costs as $15 making it anywhere in the range of $60-65 a sq foot. Basing on the assumption that we are looking for 1500 sq feet space this becomes annual rent of $90k to $97k.

Do you think is it a good idea to invest in Calgary or should we wait and see?

Any and all insights will be great! Thanks a bunch!

[dirtsniffer]

Open up one of these and you'll do great

http://people.com/celebrity/topless-...of-washington/

[msommers]

Aspen Woods shopping area is where I'd personally open a cafe. Lots of money in the area, lots of stay at homes and the only competition are two Starbucks literally across from each other.

Hillhurst needs a replacement since the place that was there before got shutdown because the landlords sold the property - she was in there 20 years apparently. Same reasons as above except there isn't a single cafe in the area for awhile to compete with.

Mission I think would be a tough go, especially in that main area (although by the Safeway might be better). You'd be in direct competition with Phil and Sebs - a high-end cafe here in Calgary with long established brand recognition.

Can't help with commercial costs.

[HomespunLobster]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
Open up one of these and you'll do great

http://people.com/celebrity/topless-...of-washington/

“The problem wasn’t as much what they saw, it was having to explain to my 8-, 7- and 5-year-old kids why there are women without shirts on serving coffee and why there are men in line to get this coffee,”

What about when you drive your kid past a beach? A park where women walk around in bikini tops?

I'd probably start drinking coffee if a shop like this opened up

[HiTempguy1]

Really? You are that hard up to oggle some tits?

Its like going to Hooters or the Tilted Kilt, why? Some mildly good looking chick pays attention to you (because you are paying them) and all of a sudden the food doesn't matter??

Don't get me wrong, I like nice scenery, but seriously.

[Strider]

Originally posted by msommers
Aspen Woods shopping area is where I'd personally open a cafe. Lots of money in the area, lots of stay at homes and the only competition are two Starbucks literally across from each other.

Hillhurst needs a replacement since the place that was there before got shutdown because the landlords sold the property - she was in there 20 years apparently. Same reasons as above except there isn't a single cafe in the area for awhile to compete with.

Mission I think would be a tough go, especially in that main area (although by the Safeway might be better). You'd be in direct competition with Phil and Sebs - a high-end cafe here in Calgary with long established brand recognition.

Can't help with commercial costs.

OP really needs to be more specific about the kind of cafe (or just name the chain). Location/competition really depends on what type of place it is and what distinguishes it (whether it's quick service coffee, sit-down food, cozy atmosphere) - are they after the morning coffee rush and close at 5pm? suburban housewives throughout the day? lunch and dinner service?

Aspen Woods he'll be competing with Ladybug for the suburban housewife dollars.

Hillhurst has Vintage Caffeine Co on 19th and Analog opening a block away in Spring 2017 for coffee, and Dairy Lane for food.

Mission/17th, he'll be competing with Phil & Seb, Analog, Philosafy, Purple Perk for coffee, and a million other places for food.

Maybe Bridgeland? They have tons of breakfast/brunch options and a Starbucks - also Baya Rica and Lukes Drug Mart, but maybe room for a cafe?

[dirtsniffer]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
Really? You are that hard up to oggle some tits?

Its like going to Hooters or the Tilted Kilt, why? Some mildly good looking chick pays attention to you (because you are paying them) and all of a sudden the food doesn't matter??

Don't get me wrong, I like nice scenery, but seriously.

Don't worry, the article mentions that there is another shop with male staff..

[msommers]

Wow had no idea there was a place in Hillhurst now, that's fantastic. Looks really nice, have you been??

[A790]

Originally posted by zimba

Do you think is it a good idea to invest in Calgary or should we move to other provinces which are doing well like BC and start business there?

Is that a serious question?

[max_boost]

Do you or any of your partners have any experience in operating a business or any previous serving/hospitality work etc. ?

Or you guys just happen to have 3-500k laying around and want to give it a shot?

Either way good luck.

[ee2k]

While it seems like 17/Mission is saturated, every new coffee shop that opens finds a way to amass a following and consistent traffic. The only exception I have seen is Cafe Artigiano which was not hip enough and was way overpriced.

In Mission, on 4th alone, we have Phil & Sebastian, Starbucks, Boulangerie, Savour (I don't know why this one is still in business,) Purple Perk, Mercato. Second cup has taken up that corner on 17 and 4.

17 Avenue has a slew of coffee shops, including newest one which is Philosophy that seems to be doing well. Rosso is also opening up closer to Macleod on 17, a quieter area that'll develop in time.

[zimba]

Originally posted by Strider


OP really needs to be more specific about the kind of cafe (or just name the chain). Location/competition really depends on what type of place it is and what distinguishes it (whether it's quick service coffee, sit-down food, cozy atmosphere) - are they after the morning coffee rush and close at 5pm? suburban housewives throughout the day? lunch and dinner service?

Aspen Woods he'll be competing with Ladybug for the suburban housewife dollars.

Hillhurst has Vintage Caffeine Co on 19th and Analog opening a block away in Spring 2017 for coffee, and Dairy Lane for food.

Mission/17th, he'll be competing with Phil & Seb, Analog, Philosafy, Purple Perk for coffee, and a million other places for food.

Maybe Bridgeland? They have tons of breakfast/brunch options and a Starbucks - also Baya Rica and Lukes Drug Mart, but maybe room for a cafe?

We were thinking of Mission area primarily to attract some of the offices and then with few other bigger brands coming up there will be more traffic as with Five Guys, Blaze Pizza.

The cafe that we are opening up is more like hybrid between Costa Coffee and Panera Bread company.

It will be QSR, with sit in option for variety of zone options including counter, benches, cozy fire place, and communal table for a total capacity of around 40-50 in the cafe - design / aesthetics like Al Forno . I see more direct competition in Mission/4th Street area in La Boulangerie (near Safeway) as opposed to Purple Perk.

However, as it be unique international brand therefore we were hoping that people who know this brand a bit would come for food and coffee from other parts of the city albeit after 6:00pm, as we plan to keep it open from 6:00am till 10:00 or maybe 11:00 if that is the time big gun players like Five Guys, and Blaze Pizza plan to open in that area.

Phil & Seb is a good quality cafe with great coffee, and Starbucks will always be there on any good location in North America, hence we believe that it's always better to operate in an area with some competition rather than no competition as in the first place there could be reason why no one moved to that place.

[zimba]

Originally posted by ee2k
While it seems like 17/Mission is saturated, every new coffee shop that opens finds a way to amass a following and consistent traffic. The only exception I have seen is Cafe Artigiano which was not hip enough and was way overpriced.

In Mission, on 4th alone, we have Phil & Sebastian, Starbucks, Boulangerie, Savour (I don't know why this one is still in business,) Purple Perk, Mercato. Second cup has taken up that corner on 17 and 4.

17 Avenue has a slew of coffee shops, including newest one which is Philosophy that seems to be doing well. Rosso is also opening up closer to Macleod on 17, a quieter area that'll develop in time.

Cafe Artigiano's failure is interesting one - as they closed 4 of their stores at the same time, two in Calgary, one in Vancouver, and one (only one they had) in Toronto. Something seems fishy about that - no?

Our strategy was to attract more office, young execs and housewife crowd from 6:00am till 6:00pm and then by offering unique niche products attract more crowd from around the city based on it's international appeal.

We are looking at a place that Koob has recently closed - but they are charging $60 a foot (Rent plus Op Costs) - so this makes us a little nervous.

Although two of us have previous experience and know the game inside out - but still it's a lot of money that we are putting in to create a unique cafe - first time product offering in Canada.

I can assure that the Coffee and Tea that we will be bringing will be breath of fresh air for Calgary market and they will be of quite high quality.

Still we felt that 524 on 17th Ave was the best suited place for our concept (next to Ox and Angela) but since that space is not available anymore we want to know options from end users in Calgary.

[nzwasp]

Quarry Park!

Lots of companies (read consumers) but only one starbucks occupying the area. Tim Hortons and mcdonalds are both atleast a 5min drive to get to.

[mr2mike]

polling beyond for research.
Awesome business plan.

[R-Audi]

Best piece of advice.. get a well seasoned retail broker to help you with your search. Not only will they have an in on locations and preferable sizes and layouts, they will also help you put together a business plan and pitch for the landlord. They will also have an idea of furture growth plans for other chains. (Previously I worked in Leasing for a landlord..retail and office product)

Few other comments:

-Artigiano is currently going through bankruptcy proceedings. All current locations will be sold off. They closed the slower locations in which the Landlords wouldnt provide a discount on rent. They were slow to react to trends and the owner was difficult to deal with.

-Old Koob space on 4th is a dead zone. PASS. One end of 4th is busy.. then 17th is busy.. middle area is still in growth.

-Pay special attention to the layout of your business... it will make or break you.

[zimba]

Originally posted by nzwasp
Quarry Park!

Lots of companies (read consumers) but only one starbucks occupying the area. Tim Hortons and mcdonalds are both atleast a 5min drive to get to.

Thanks for the suggestion - Will look into that area as well - it always helps to get as much info as possible - as it enables to reflect better.

The company that works for our product identified the following:

1. Mission - 4th Street
2. Marda Loop
3. Aspen Landing
4. Upcoming Springbank Hill area

Today, I thought should ask for perspective of some people here too - as it gave us two options (Quarry Park and Bridgeland) to put forward to the company doing business research - I think it wouldn't hurt to see what they say.

[ee2k]

Originally posted by zimba


Cafe Artigiano's failure is interesting one - as they closed 4 of their stores at the same time, two in Calgary, one in Vancouver, and one (only one they had) in Toronto. Something seems fishy about that - no?

Our strategy was to attract more office, young execs and housewife crowd from 6:00am till 6:00pm and then by offering unique niche products attract more crowd from around the city based on it's international appeal.

We are looking at a place that Koob has recently closed - but they are charging $60 a foot (Rent plus Op Costs) - so this makes us a little nervous.

Although two of us have previous experience and know the game inside out - but still it's a lot of money that we are putting in to create a unique cafe - first time product offering in Canada.

I can assure that the Coffee and Tea that we will be bringing will be breath of fresh air for Calgary market and they will be of quite high quality.

Still we felt that 524 on 17th Ave was the best suited place for our concept (next to Ox and Angela) but since that space is not available anymore we want to know options from end users in Calgary.

I like your concept. I dislike the Koob side of the street on 4th. Many businesses on that side don't thrive, that's been my observation. Same goes for south side of 17 Avenue. I sometimes think it might be due to the lack of sunshine. You need parking for the housewives that drive down from Mount Royal (they drive Ranger Rovers,) patio setting for the Missionites that wander on a weekend morning and park their dogs as they indulge in coffee and pastries.

On any given day where I crave something quick or a grab and go in Mission area, I'm limited to Purple Perk for a sandwich (if they have not run out, and service with attitude) or have to drive down 17 to find something to pickup and go. Famoso has been good also, but can't eat pizza all the time. I'm excited about 5 Guys as an option, but something else like what I think you're offering also has a place for it - especially since it'll also cater to health conscious, busy can't-cook-at-home lifestyle.

Artigiano, from what I understand, did a midnight move. They are known to be overpriced. Their location in Mission was too big, seemed like a bingo hall and was just out of place. It lacked character and the intimate settings that Calgarians in the area are getting accustomed to when it comes to coffee shops.

[zimba]

Originally posted by R-Audi
Best piece of advice.. get a well seasoned retail broker to help you with your search. Not only will they have an in on locations and preferable sizes and layouts, they will also help you put together a business plan and pitch for the landlord. They will also have an idea of furture growth plans for other chains. (Previously I worked in Leasing for a landlord..retail and office product)

Few other comments:

-Artigiano is currently going through bankruptcy proceedings. All current locations will be sold off. They closed the slower locations in which the Landlords wouldnt provide a discount on rent. They were slow to react to trends and the owner was difficult to deal with.

-Old Koob space on 4th is a dead zone. PASS. One end of 4th is busy.. then 17th is busy.. middle area is still in growth.

-Pay special attention to the layout of your business... it will make or break you.

Design aspect will be from top notch design firm in Alberta who has designed types like Fork & Salad, Al Forno, NoTable, Model Milk, Trolley 5, Analog Cafe

So you think opposite to Koob where Five Guys is opening will be good option - if the space can be reduced in Artigiano's place then do you think with top notch designer that is better option than 6th Street 17th Ave SW and also 12th Street 17th Ave SW )next to Khao San)?

Sent you a pm - whenever you have time please respond!

[zimba]

Originally posted by ee2k


I like your concept. I dislike the Koob side of the street on 4th. Many businesses on that side don't thrive, that's been my observation. Same goes for south side of 17 Avenue. I sometimes think it might be due to the lack of sunshine. You need parking for the housewives that drive down from Mount Royal (they drive Ranger Rovers,) patio setting for the Missionites that wander on a weekend morning and park their dogs as they indulge in coffee and pastries.

On any given day where I crave something quick or a grab and go in Mission area, I'm limited to Purple Perk for a sandwich (if they have not run out, and service with attitude) or have to drive down 17 to find something to pickup and go. Famoso has been good also, but can't eat pizza all the time. I'm excited about 5 Guys as an option, but something else like what I think you're offering also has a place for it - especially since it'll also cater to health conscious, busy can't-cook-at-home lifestyle.

Artigiano, from what I understand, did a midnight move. They are known to be overpriced. Their location in Mission was too big, seemed like a bingo hall and was just out of place. It lacked character and the intimate settings that Calgarians in the area are getting accustomed to when it comes to coffee shops.

Good info and perspective. Thank you so much- means a lot as we are quite passionate about this project and any info that we can get from residents of the area is highly valuable.

Thanks ee2k!