Who is getting the COVID-19 Vaccine?

[sabad66]

Moderna is also mandating it themselves. I’m sure Pfizer is too. Here’s a snip from a random job I found posted on their careers site:

https://modernatx.wd1.myworkdayjobs....Genomics_R5375

[SKR]

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Man, I support your right to make your own decision about the shot, but you’re really making me look bad here.

Imagine if you'd found out that he's retarded before you said something as insane as

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I am on the side of SportEL on this one

[SportEL]

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Man, I support your right to make your own decision about the shot, but you’re really making me look bad here.

Before posting that, go look up if it’s true. When you realize that it isn’t, don’t get your information from wherever you got that. It’s easy enough to verify. You have to put effort into confirming these things or you’ll believe everything and have no credibility.

Without even looking that up, it should be obvious that the reason Pfizer and Moderna employees aren’t included in Biden’s mandate is because they’re private companies and he has no authority to do that. It’s the same reason that I’m “exempt” from Biden’s mandate.

Fine. And that's why it's good to have discussions to see what is true or not. Congress and staff from the legislative branch , and the Judicial branch are not subject to the national policy, neither are illegal immigrants or those employers with less than 100 employees. Why are there even exemptions? If we're to treat everyone the same, then everyone should be subject to the same rules. If it's about health and safety why are thousands of illegal aliens allowed to pour over the border and flown to various parts of the country?

To those that dismiss me, please explain the above to me instead of resorting to insults.

[SportEL]

Congress are not part of Biden's National Vaccine Policy. That's Good, and ALL people should be given the chance of how they handle their health decisions whether they want to take the Vaxx or some other alternative treatment

[TurboMedic]

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I guess I'll make a post explaining what I mean, or maybe a thread in ask leo or something, because we can't be adults about this topic anymore, and the rabid cult drones swarm as soon as you sound like you're implying that the vax is anything less than jesus in a bottle. It's a messy topic, so it's kinda hard to get into without explaining fully.

Them being "kind of shit" is forgivable given the circumstances, we had to get something out ASAP, V1.0 isn't going to be perfect, but how things have been handled since then are pretty inexcusable. I think they are still less shit than covid, to be clear, so not saying people shouldn't get it.

Just saw this, hoping Canada doesn't get this stupid. But it's been a rapid decline from Trudeau saying on TV that we would never mandate vaccines because that's not the Canadian way, to today.

https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/statu...30823748509696

Acknowledging the ICU capacity is a real problem no matter what, people should be aware of how little of a blip in hospitalizations it takes to cause that. I forget the exact numbers, but I think AB has something like 200 staffed ICU beds for over 4 million people, and they usually run around 80% utilization (because why would you pay nurses and real estate for shit you aren't using, especially when you're already broke and giving nurses pay cuts), give or take, and I think they've almost doubled that temporarily to 400ish beds? So if they're 80% full on a normal day with no pandemic, that means it only takes about 40 sick people out of 4+ million to shut down the entire fucking province.

The only reason I say this is not to delegitimize that as a real problem, but because although it's definitely not "just the flu", the messaging about flooded hospitals is causing an alarmingly large number of people to be legitimately terrified for them and their kids, which is completely unwarranted (especially kids). It should be taken seriously, but people shouldn't be getting stress ulcers and snitching because a mask fell down and getting into fights and shit. I sort of thought most people are on the same page and their fear level was relatively properly calibrated, but people crying because of real fears that their children might die, and then instilling that fear into kids, is lunacy and not helping anyone.

This is where how the UCP is framing this is causing problems, in regards to people thinking that the ICU's are still under capacity. They are reporting the total of the "SURGE CAPACITY" that is in place that keeps expanding due to the ever increasing numbers, and that of which is barely maintaining adequacy because the number of deaths have been running near par on ICU demand. On any non pandemic timeframe, the actual provincial ICU capacity is something like 80 or 90 true ICU beds. The capacity has increased due to ICU spaces being placed in temporary structures (PRU at PLC for example), or in other areas of the hospital that are not designed for or properly equipped for ICU usage, to 200-250, I'd have to find the actual number again.

Now, you hold your hands to your face and say "gosh how can we only have that few ICU beds for a province of 4 million people". Well its simple, because that level of ICU is literally the sickest of the sick, the most dire and most complex patients, which is why in normal times we run 80% of typical NORMAL ICU capacity, not of this surge capacity. But to reiterate the point, the idea that we are a) under capacity, and b) underequipped for a province our size is just straight misinformation. We don't need that many ICU beds on any other normal day to manage all of the normal health related ICU admissions......COVID quite obviously changed that so stop saying we should have had more.

This should clue some of you people into just how sick this makes you, when we have to expand our absolute top level of intensive care to 2.5x because just normal levels of illness don't come close to touching what COVID does. The dissonance displayed by individuals such as yourself in the face of what is blatantly obvious is truly puzzling. You laid the facts out there yourself, yet didn't think to say wow, maybe this is actually a serious issue that is taking extraordinary measures to manage.

[finboy]

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This is where how the UCP is framing this is causing problems, in regards to people thinking that the ICU's are still under capacity. They are reporting the total of the "SURGE CAPACITY" that is in place that keeps expanding due to the ever increasing numbers, and that of which is barely maintaining adequacy because the number of deaths have been running near par on ICU demand. On any non pandemic timeframe, the actual provincial ICU capacity is something like 80 or 90 true ICU beds. The capacity has increased due to ICU spaces being placed in temporary structures (PRU at PLC for example), or in other areas of the hospital that are not designed for or properly equipped for ICU usage, to 200-250, I'd have to find the actual number again.

Now, you hold your hands to your face and say "gosh how can we only have that few ICU beds for a province of 4 million people". Well its simple, because that level of ICU is literally the sickest of the sick, the most dire and most complex patients, which is why in normal times we run 80% of typical NORMAL ICU capacity, not of this surge capacity. But to reiterate the point, the idea that we are a) under capacity, and b) underequipped for a province our size is just straight misinformation. We don't need that many ICU beds on any other normal day to manage all of the normal health related ICU admissions......COVID quite obviously changed that so stop saying we should have had more.

This should clue some of you people into just how sick this makes you, when we have to expand our absolute top level of intensive care to 2.5x because just normal levels of illness don't come close to touching what COVID does. The dissonance displayed by individuals such as yourself in the face of what is blatantly obvious is truly puzzling. You laid the facts out there yourself, yet didn't think to say wow, maybe this is actually a serious issue that is taking extraordinary measures to manage.

A few pages back rage mentioned data showing mostly old people in icu. I suspect it’s still mostly the 50+ crowd or preexisting co-morbidities, but haven’t seen any data in the last few pages. My understanding is that delta is more transmissible but not more deadly, it will get to a wider target audience who would have been impacted by the OG strain.

If that still holds true by the data, I still don’t see why we would need a passport if we just triaged and moved the unvaccinated down the list.

[pheoxs]

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A few pages back rage mentioned data showing mostly old people in icu. I suspect it’s still mostly the 50+ crowd or preexisting co-morbidities, but haven’t seen any data in the last few pages. My understanding is that delta is more transmissible but not more deadly, it will get to a wider target audience who would have been impacted by the OG strain.

If that still holds true by the data, I still don’t see why we would need a passport if we just triaged and moved the unvaccinated down the list.

In our ICU over the last 120 days:

Vaccinated:
Under 50 - 16
Over 50 -60

Unvaccinated
Under 50 - 273
Over 50 - 469


https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-1...ccine-outcomes

[finboy]

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In our ICU over the last 120 days:

Vaccinated:
Under 50 - 16
Over 50 -60

Unvaccinated
Under 50 - 273
Over 50 - 469


https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-1...ccine-outcomes

Be vaccinated, if you are over 50 or have pre-existing conditions take some extra precautions. Vaccinated under 50 and you have less than a 2% chance of being in the icu (not including co-morbidities) according to that data if my marth is right.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Can't talk right now. Busy shit-posting restaurants on Facebook that are "choosing to segregate" by following the law.
Somehow, I gotta keep my BMI at certifiably obese and these restaurants be makin it hardz. My uncle fucked me and I could pretend it was rape but the reality is, I was cool with it.
*purchases extended warranty
*watches Judge Judy
*cheers for Maple Leafs
*buys Harley Davidson shirts
*says "Adam & Eve not Adam & Steve!!¡"

[SportEL]

2 Children, Five and Four Years Old Accidently Given the Covid Vaxx instead of the Flu Shot

--> https://www.14news.com/2021/10/08/at...ead-flu-shots/


- The family says they left the pharmacy thinking they had received their flu shots, but a Walgreens employee later called them and said they had made a mistake. The attorney tells us the cards were then issued since the coronavirus vaccine had been given.

- Tuley says the children have been taken to a pediatric cardiologist, and the family was told both are showing signs of heart issues.


---

Who should be Liable? Walgreens? Pharmacist? Whoever it is, it doesn't help with the effects the children will suffer. I with the two the best.

[googe]

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This is where how the UCP is framing this is causing problems, in regards to people thinking that the ICU's are still under capacity. They are reporting the total of the "SURGE CAPACITY" that is in place that keeps expanding due to the ever increasing numbers, and that of which is barely maintaining adequacy because the number of deaths have been running near par on ICU demand. On any non pandemic timeframe, the actual provincial ICU capacity is something like 80 or 90 true ICU beds. The capacity has increased due to ICU spaces being placed in temporary structures (PRU at PLC for example), or in other areas of the hospital that are not designed for or properly equipped for ICU usage, to 200-250, I'd have to find the actual number again.

Now, you hold your hands to your face and say "gosh how can we only have that few ICU beds for a province of 4 million people". Well its simple, because that level of ICU is literally the sickest of the sick, the most dire and most complex patients, which is why in normal times we run 80% of typical NORMAL ICU capacity, not of this surge capacity. But to reiterate the point, the idea that we are a) under capacity, and b) underequipped for a province our size is just straight misinformation. We don't need that many ICU beds on any other normal day to manage all of the normal health related ICU admissions......COVID quite obviously changed that so stop saying we should have had more.

This should clue some of you people into just how sick this makes you, when we have to expand our absolute top level of intensive care to 2.5x because just normal levels of illness don't come close to touching what COVID does. The dissonance displayed by individuals such as yourself in the face of what is blatantly obvious is truly puzzling. You laid the facts out there yourself, yet didn't think to say wow, maybe this is actually a serious issue that is taking extraordinary measures to manage.

It's like you quoted my reply without even reading it.

I understand why we have that ICU capacity, I didn't say anything that even implies that AB is "under capacity", I didn't say anything like AB "should have had more". Maybe read it again, slower, because I said the same thing that you're saying. My point was that it doesn't take much to push it over, and I acknowledged the practical reason for that.

It's no surprise that "the dissonance displayed by individuals such as myself is truly puzzling" when you throw out everything I just said and then substitute something to argue with yourself about.

"yet didn't think to say wow, maybe this is actually a serious issue"

I said literally that, repeatedly, you reactionary clown. You quoted it, twice, in that message.

See, this is what I mean about not being able to have adult conversations. These rabid zealots just get a whiff of something they badly pattern-match to a conversation they must have had elsewhere and unload on you. Of course, this is a guy that said I was "wrong" before he even heard my rationale.

[TurboMedic]

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A few pages back rage mentioned data showing mostly old people in icu. I suspect it’s still mostly the 50+ crowd or preexisting co-morbidities, but haven’t seen any data in the last few pages. My understanding is that delta is more transmissible but not more deadly, it will get to a wider target audience who would have been impacted by the OG strain.

If that still holds true by the data, I still don’t see why we would need a passport if we just triaged and moved the unvaccinated down the list.

Sure, but you see how that age you posted has been slowly creeping down? Before it was 80+, then 70+, now 50+, and the pre-existing comorbidities thing has been discussed at length as well. Nearly everybody has pre-existing comorbidities, be it hypertension, high cholesterol, liver or renal impairment to a degree, asthma, smoking, diabetes, etc. whether they know it or not depending on degree. You have people out there being all "I eat healthy, I exercise, I'm fine", blind to the fact they have a condition of sorts that may be asymptomatic (like HTN or DLD, insulin impairment that's reasonably diet controlled, electrolyte imbalance) until you get really sick. The biggest fallacy of humans is their own perception of health status. Not going to a doctor and identifying what is going on with your body by means of actual diagnostic procedures is not the same as "I don't have any health problems". I still encounter patients who are advanced age, now experiencing chest pain, heart failure, whatever it may be say "I don't have any health problems, I don't take any medications". Well you do, they've just been undiagnosed and untreated for many years, and if they had been maybe you'd avoid this whole thing and not be in medical distress because of ignorance. People become accustomed to a certain level of discomfort, reduction in abilities or activities, alterations in their bodily functions because it happens slowly so they think nothing is wrong and they still see themselves as they did 30 years prior. Maybe you're not peeing as well as you were, more or less, different, maybe you can't run up 5 flights of stairs the same way, maybe you get dizzy on the shitter, maybe your ankles swell after a day of work now, maybe you can't get it up for your wife every day of the week anymore, maybe your feet get cold, etc etc. People ignore subtle signs and pass them off as "just getting older" all the time when they're indications of these comorbidities that apparently nobody under 50 has (I assure you, they do)

Ignorance is the best word for it, its people thinking they know better than the medical community at large, and that is endemic of all levels of it, from not seeking primary care from a family physician, all the way up to the epidemiologist debates.


EDIT: I wanted to add something, just because the focus is on ICU admission and still being the only acceptable indicator for serious disease. I have colleagues who have contracted COVID through work. They were vaccinated, they got varying degrees of sick, some hardly any, but others unable to return to work due to lung function/damage, unable to walk their kids around a block to a park because of shortness of breath, no smell/taste, weight loss, continued visits for diagnostics to rule out clotting and other complications. Months so far, well under your age of risk, fit and active (remember above that's not an indicator of underlying conditions), no idea when normal function will return, if ever. The point is, the measure of success should not be did you avoid ICU, because sure you're still alive despite not going there, but at what cost. COVID isn't all or nothing, its not sniffles or ECMO. There's so much illness in between there that can be permanently debilitating to a degree nobody really knows yet. We could suffer healthcare loads for long COVID for years and years to come. Its not a game of russian roulette I would be interested in trying......What's the saying? Fuck around and find out? No thanks, I've seen enough people do that already and know the score.

[ExtraSlow]

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The vaccines are highly effective, even with variants, of greatly reducing your risk of a serious health outcome from being infected. No matter what risk group you were in before being vaccinated, getting vaccinated dramatically reduces your risk of a serious health outcome. That's the point.

This guy sounds smart. I'mma quote him from September 2, 2021.

[ThePenIsMightier]

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This guy sounds smart. I'mma quote him from September 2, 2021.

They don't hand out italic user titles to just anyone!
You gotta be some kind of reputable mahfk!

[finboy]

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Sure, but you see how that age you posted has been slowly creeping down? Before it was 80+, then 70+, now 50+, and the pre-existing comorbidities thing has been discussed at length as well. Nearly everybody has pre-existing comorbidities, be it hypertension, high cholesterol, liver or renal impairment to a degree, asthma, smoking, diabetes, etc. whether they know it or not depending on degree. You have people out there being all "I eat healthy, I exercise, I'm fine", blind to the fact they have a condition of sorts that may be asymptomatic (like HTN or DLD, insulin impairment that's reasonably diet controlled, electrolyte imbalance) until you get really sick. The biggest fallacy of humans is their own perception of health status. Not going to a doctor and identifying what is going on with your body by means of actual diagnostic procedures is not the same as "I don't have any health problems". I still encounter patients who are advanced age, now experiencing chest pain, heart failure, whatever it may be say "I don't have any health problems, I don't take any medications". Well you do, they've just been undiagnosed and untreated for many years, and if they had been maybe you'd avoid this whole thing and not be in medical distress because of ignorance. People become accustomed to a certain level of discomfort, reduction in abilities or activities, alterations in their bodily functions because it happens slowly so they think nothing is wrong and they still see themselves as they did 30 years prior. Maybe you're not peeing as well as you were, more or less, different, maybe you can't run up 5 flights of stairs the same way, maybe you get dizzy on the shitter, maybe your ankles swell after a day of work now, maybe you can't get it up for your wife every day of the week anymore, maybe your feet get cold, etc etc. People ignore subtle signs and pass them off as "just getting older" all the time when they're indications of these comorbidities that apparently nobody under 50 has (I assure you, they do)

Ignorance is the best word for it, its people thinking they know better than the medical community at large, and that is endemic of all levels of it, from not seeking primary care from a family physician, all the way up to the epidemiologist debates.


EDIT: I wanted to add something, just because the focus is on ICU admission and still being the only acceptable indicator for serious disease. I have colleagues who have contracted COVID through work. They were vaccinated, they got varying degrees of sick, some hardly any, but others unable to return to work due to lung function/damage, unable to walk their kids around a block to a park because of shortness of breath, no smell/taste, weight loss, continued visits for diagnostics to rule out clotting and other complications. Months so far, well under your age of risk, fit and active (remember above that's not an indicator of underlying conditions), no idea when normal function will return, if ever. The point is, the measure of success should not be did you avoid ICU, because sure you're still alive despite not going there, but at what cost. COVID isn't all or nothing, its not sniffles or ECMO. There's so much illness in between there that can be permanently debilitating to a degree nobody really knows yet. We could suffer healthcare loads for long COVID for years and years to come. Its not a game of russian roulette I would be interested in trying......What's the saying? Fuck around and find out? No thanks, I've seen enough people do that already and know the score.

To your first part, the data provided was for 50 plus, i’m sure that would go up if you considered 60+, 70+ etc. But that is the nature of this disease. You will get no argument from me on the general shape people are in vs their perceptions (I think in this thread a few months back I highlighted the average American weighing 15 pounds more than the average Canadian), but the core measure being used for covid restrictions now is ICU capacity and not collapsing our healthcare system. By using that metric, we have to find some kind of balance to get back to normal, and a great starting point is putting accountability on those who are at greatest risk for collapsing the healthcare system. There absolutely is risk with covid, I don’t recommend anyone actively try to go out and get it, but once vaccinated at population level, the vast majority of society are not going to see the inside of a hospital, nor suffer long term impacts if they get it. As an aside, anecdotally I’ve noticed my entire social circle slip into worse shape over covid from an inability to get access to consistent workout regiments and group activities.I don’t support the idea of vaccine passports but am very glad that in-person brick training will replace the virtual events I did the previous year. This might not be the case for everyone but I’d be curious to see the average weight gain from 2020-2021 compared with 2019-2020.

I can appreciate in your position you see the worst of the worst, and your colleagues (healthy as they might be) face higher viral loads and therefore might have worse cases of covid. I’m curious to hear your take on how we turn down all restrictions or what measure you would want to see if it isn’t keeping icu capacity clear. Your post sounds like you would favour zero covid but I don’t think anyone believes that is a plausible solution at this point. We are eventually going to have to come to terms that covid is going to kill/debilitate a certain part of the population even with vaccinations, and choose our individual risks accordingly.

[redline]

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To your first part, the data provided was for 50 plus, i’m sure that would go up if you considered 60+, 70+ etc. But that is the nature of this disease. You will get no argument from me on the general shape people are in vs their perceptions (I think in this thread a few months back I highlighted the average American weighing 15 pounds more than the average Canadian), but the core measure being used for covid restrictions now is ICU capacity and not collapsing our healthcare system. By using that metric, we have to find some kind of balance to get back to normal, and a great starting point is putting accountability on those who are at greatest risk for collapsing the healthcare system. There absolutely is risk with covid, I don’t recommend anyone actively try to go out and get it, but once vaccinated at population level, the vast majority of society are not going to see the inside of a hospital, nor suffer long term impacts if they get it. As an aside, anecdotally I’ve noticed my entire social circle slip into worse shape over covid from an inability to get access to consistent workout regiments and group activities.I don’t support the idea of vaccine passports but am very glad that in-person brick training will replace the virtual events I did the previous year. This might not be the case for everyone but I’d be curious to see the average weight gain from 2020-2021 compared with 2019-2020.

I can appreciate in your position you see the worst of the worst, and your colleagues (healthy as they might be) face higher viral loads and therefore might have worse cases of covid. I’m curious to hear your take on how we turn down all restrictions or what measure you would want to see if it isn’t keeping icu capacity clear. Your post sounds like you would favour zero covid but I don’t think anyone believes that is a plausible solution at this point. We are eventually going to have to come to terms that covid is going to kill/debilitate a certain part of the population even with vaccinations, and choose our individual risks accordingly.

This is the problem, your choice is not your individual risk … it just does not effect you … therefore we must do what we can to protect each other. And then we can knock it back and get back to normal.

And the passports work as proof of case counts going down.

[zechs]

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This is the problem, your choice is not your individual risk … it just does not effect you … therefore we must do what we can to protect each other.

Nope.

If me getting a vaccine prevented the trigger being pulled on a gun against your head, that would be a valid argument.

The vaccinated can spread covid. So it doesn't help with that either.

Its strictly theater. You get the vaccine if you want, and the result is you won't go to the hospital. Universal healthcare is universal, regardless of the stupid things you do, and Canadians have to live with that at this time.

Take care and responsibility for yourself.

[ThePenIsMightier]

MonkeyDrinkingItsOwnUrine.gif

[redline]

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Nope.

If me getting a vaccine prevented the trigger being pulled on a gun against your head, that would be a valid argument.

The vaccinated can spread covid. So it doesn't help with that either.

Its strictly theater. You get the vaccine if you want, and the result is you won't go to the hospital. Universal healthcare is universal, regardless of the stupid things you do, and Canadians have to live with that at this time.

Take care and responsibility for yourself.

Blah blah blah I could not come up real argument so I just typed nonsense..

[finboy]

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Blah blah blah I could not come up real argument so I just typed nonsense..

His point is valid

If you are vaccinated, odds are very much in your favour that covid will not give you a severe outcome. There are edge cases, but the lions share will be fine. I have very little reason to fear the unvaccinated any more than the vaccinated. While the unvaccinated spread covid more, there are a larger proportion of vaccinated (4 times as many) and they can still spread covid. As someone who is vaccinated, what is the end game here?

If you are unvaccinated, you might be fine, you might be a long covid patient, you might have a severe outcome/die in much higher numbers.

If the icu numbers stabilize, be it through the unvaccinated getting lower priority for treatment, or getting natural immunity, or some number being forced to vaccinate, or dying, we still have the problem of covid spreading.

What is the next step here? ICU’s are not croweded and then…..?