I'm hearing anti-weight training talk

[Tyler883]

My boss said the other day " the strongest people are the lean guys (not the bodybuilders) that you find working at a moving company, they just pick up a desk - throw it over their shoulders, and walk away with it"

I don't disagree, but as you've probably figured out, my boss is trying to imply that weight training is not the answer for someone like himself. He "wants to get stronger, but not bigger."

Soooooooo.... he is starting to get into ProBodX - good greif!!!

Well, I would like to give him a good explanation why he is headed in the wrong direction. Can you guys help me out?

[~Leah~]

Training for strength and training for size are 2 totally different concepts. However, that ProBodX thing sounds like a huge fad to be honest. But basically, strength training is doing heavier, quicker movements where you basically train your fast twitch muscles. When training for size, you do slower more controlled movements. Either way, weight training is key to either of these programs. He's not gonna get super strong just from using different balance objects and what not. Sure, it's a great thing to incorporate into the workout, but it's definitely not something you want to do on its own. It's more of an elite athletic program than anything. Quick movements, plyometrics, training for speed and agility.... I'm pretty sure your boss isn't an elite athlete, so the training wouldn't be worth it for him. He will gain some speed and power and endurance, but not much strength. But thats just my opinion.

[Tyler883]

Exactly. I think one reason why people feel they can get strong from balanciing, is their relative level of condition.

For example, I could probably build muscle by jogging short distances. Why? Because even though jogging is an aerobic exercise, I am so far out of shape that jogging will have an anaerobic effect on my legs.

The same goes for ProBodX, probably all the exercises and balancing will strengthen my boss in the first few months but then its benefits will diminish.

at probodx uses dumbells, but what happens when your body adapts to the dumbells? He'll be goimg back to the store to buy some larger dumbells...

...gee, sounds a bit like weight training......

.....gee it sound a bit like weight training with a bit too much emphasis on balancing, and using crappy equipment.

[Tyler883]

Hey Leah?

Last night, I did some reading on fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers. I've noted that they differ in speed and endurance. The fast twitch fibers are larger fibers, and known as white meat. Slow twitch is full of the "m" word, the thing that makes it brown meat.

but am i right to say that they are simillar in strength?

Also, when I train at the gym, I sometimes train for endurance( sets of 15-25),

and sometimes I train for xxxxxx( sets of 8-12)

what is xxxxxxx? strength? size? growth? all of the above?

when an olympic lifter trains with set of 1-3, they are training for power?

[Wildcat]

^fast twitch muscles are the ones that are trained by bodybuilders for muscle growth. most of the olympic lifters power comes from tendon and joint strength aswell as fast twitch muscles. doing heavy compound movements with low reps hits the tendons moreso than the muscle. few bb's train like that anymore, ronnie coleman being the exception.

[~Leah~]

Sets of 8-12 is basically a strength training set. Reps at 6-8 are typically training for size, along with some strength obviously. Anything lower than that, usually around 3-4 sets, is power training, you got it.

As for the fast twitch/slow twitch fiber question... it's complicated. Strength isn't really something that comes into play alot when discussing these fibers. However, to keep it simple, fast twitch fibers tend to be the stronger of the 2 because they are used in quick explosive movements, as opposed to long, drawn out ones.

[Tyler883]

Thanks. I really apreciate all the help so far. I hope I can ask one more question , pls.

Bench Press

Warm up - 110 lbs - 15 reps - effort 5-6
next set - 130 lbs - 15 reps - effort 7-8
next set - 150 lbs - 12 reps or to failure - effort 8-9
next set - 160 lbs - to failure ( 10-12 reps) - effort 9-10
next set - 160 lbs - to failure ( 6-8 reps) - effort 10
longer break
last set - 150 lbs - to failure (8-10reps) - effort 10

this is pretty typical description of what I do for benchpress, as part of a full chest routine, it will take me about 3-4 days to recover( one day faster if I'm steady with the whey protien)

What kind of training is this?

My goals have always been to build muscle(for increased metabolism)on the days that I'm not successful at creating a calorie deficiet.

Swartnegger once wrote " if you aren't in the gym to build muscle then what are you doing there?" I understand that some people are there to tone, but I'm with Arnnie on this one.

[Alterac]

I think thats a little xtreme Tyler,

try 15 12 8's.

15 reps of about 120, then 12 reps of 140, then 8 of your current max.

To many sets like that creates an adverse effect on your muscles with having a long recovery time. Anything over a day of recover, and you are working 1 group too hard.

IMHO.

[Tyler883]

Hi Alterac,
thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, I'm about to get arguementive with you, please don't take it personal, and by all means - put me in my place. I find that I can be just as wrong as most people.

I don't think its xtreme at all, considering that I do about 3 times that much volume before I'm done my entire chest routine.( and I've based my routine from Arnold's Encyclopedia of Body Building, he has a reccomended routine for people that are just starting out)

Also, I have to disagree with your one day recovery rule. Firstly, it takes about 24 hours for your muscles to get sore, I beleive this is how long it takes for the lactic acid?crystals? to reach peak levels. There's an excellent discription of the whole process in Gold's Gym Encyclopedia of body building.

To your credit, what you are suggesting is similar to Bill Phillip's Body for Life training, and I've used it....it does seem to work....but the problem that I had - lower volume routines were a hit and miss for me, and I tend to increase the weight so much that my form goes to crap, and an old shoulder injury starts screaming at me.

In my opinion, if your recovery periods are always less than one day, you ought to try 4 weeks of what I'm talking about, heck even 1 week, and I beleive that it will agree with you.

[1-Cent]

Originally posted by Wildcat
^fast twitch muscles are the ones that are trained by bodybuilders for muscle growth. most of the olympic lifters power comes from tendon and joint strength aswell as fast twitch muscles. doing heavy compound movements with low reps hits the tendons moreso than the muscle. few bb's train like that anymore, ronnie coleman being the exception.

Exactly, ronnie is an animal if you watch his real training clips and not the cheap workout videos, 1-3 reps is what he usualy puts out. In reality you won't get massive like ronnie using strength training unless you do a great deal of AAS because that hard dense muscle he possesses takes exponentially longer to build if you're natural, no lie.

But I tell ya, when I lost my natty status I started using a powerlifting/strongman routine and damn will it make you grow way more than any bodybuilding routine.

[Wildcat]

^ i downloaded "the unbeleivable ronnie coleman", i think that was filmed during 2001/02 during his prime. hes lifting some big ass weights in that video. i also have jay cutler's "new improved and beyond" (filmed in 03 or 04?) and for the #2 bb in the world he doesnt lift anything compared to big ron, like not even close.

Originally posted by Tyler883
Thanks. I really apreciate all the help so far. I hope I can ask one more question , pls.

Bench Press

Warm up - 110 lbs - 15 reps - effort 5-6
next set - 130 lbs - 15 reps - effort 7-8
next set - 150 lbs - 12 reps or to failure - effort 8-9
next set - 160 lbs - to failure ( 10-12 reps) - effort 9-10
next set - 160 lbs - to failure ( 6-8 reps) - effort 10
longer break
last set - 150 lbs - to failure (8-10reps) - effort 10

this is pretty typical description of what I do for benchpress, as part of a full chest routine, it will take me about 3-4 days to recover( one day faster if I'm steady with the whey protien)

What kind of training is this?

My goals have always been to build muscle(for increased metabolism)on the days that I'm not successful at creating a calorie deficiet.

Swartnegger once wrote " if you aren't in the gym to build muscle then what are you doing there?" I understand that some people are there to tone, but I'm with Arnnie on this one.

ok, the parts of your routine that are highlighted in red are accomplishing nothing. really your just going through the movements. a warm up set is neccesary, but just limit it to ONE set. you want to be doing enough weight to provide continous tension on your muscles, not a set of 12 reps where you dont even start feeling anything until rep 7 or 8.

in short, go big weights 6-8 reps, 4-5 sets and a warm up set.

[1-Cent]

Originally posted by Wildcat
^ i downloaded "the unbeleivable ronnie coleman", i think that was filmed during 2001/02 during his prime. hes lifting some big ass weights in that video. i also have jay cutler's "new improved and beyond" (filmed in 03 or 04?) and for the #2 bb in the world he doesnt lift anything compared to big ron, like not even close.



ok, the parts of your routine that are highlighted in red are accomplishing nothing. really your just going through the movements. a warm up set is neccesary, but just limit it to ONE set. you want to be doing enough weight to provide continous tension on your muscles, not a set of 12 reps where you dont even start feeling anything until rep 7 or 8.

in short, go big weights 6-8 reps, 4-5 sets and a warm up set.

Jay is my favorite Pro BB and its true he doesn't go for the power lifting routines like Coleman... maybe thats why hes #2 eh lol. Genetics play a large role in which will work best for each person, everyone has a different ratio of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers. Another thing to consider is metabolism, if you're an ecto (like me) you don't want a high rep workout scheme or you'll waste away.

Like Wildcat said, shoot for 8 reps to begin with, 6 sets total as a jumping off point. After you get into your routine you can adjust it or keep it if its working. When I started out I did 8 rep sets and worked down with more weight and found I grow most in the 3-6 rep range.

[rahim]

Originally posted by ~Leah~
Sets of 8-12 is basically a strength training set. Reps at 6-8 are typically training for size, along with some strength obviously. Anything lower than that, usually around 3-4 sets, is power training, you got it.

As for the fast twitch/slow twitch fiber question... it's complicated. Strength isn't really something that comes into play alot when discussing these fibers. However, to keep it simple, fast twitch fibers tend to be the stronger of the 2 because they are used in quick explosive movements, as opposed to long, drawn out ones.

you seem to have that mixed up a bit, low reps are for strength, and high reps are for size

[Wildcat]

Originally posted by 1-Cent


Jay is my favorite Pro BB and its true he doesn't go for the power lifting routines like Coleman... maybe thats why hes #2 eh lol. Genetics play a large role in which will work best for each person, everyone has a different ratio of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers. Another thing to consider is metabolism, if you're an ecto (like me) you don't want a high rep workout scheme or you'll waste away.

Like Wildcat said, shoot for 8 reps to begin with, 6 sets total as a jumping off point. After you get into your routine you can adjust it or keep it if its working. When I started out I did 8 rep sets and worked down with more weight and found I grow most in the 3-6 rep range.

jay is a great bb, but i think his physique is kinda blocky. the guys a freak and everything but it looks like the muscle is just slapped on in big blocky chunks. im more partial to the classic v-taper physique like flex wheeler.

[Alterac]

Originally posted by Tyler883

Also, I have to disagree with your one day recovery rule. Firstly, it takes about 24 hours for your muscles to get sore, I beleive this is how long it takes for the lactic acid?crystals? to reach peak levels. There's an excellent discription of the whole process in Gold's Gym Encyclopedia of body building.

In my opinion, if your recovery periods are always less than one day, you ought to try 4 weeks of what I'm talking about, heck even 1 week, and I beleive that it will agree with you.

24 hours for them to get sore i cant agree with.

Ive always found with myself that I get sore real quick (4-8 hours after), and recover in a day, and the lower volume routines just seem to show incredible results for my body. I have tried a lot more intense workout, and just seemed like a waste of time for me.

lactic acid is built when we work our muscles, aka "the burn" when we are working them hard, the soreness is that your body is repairing the micro-tears you have put in your muscles, making denser and stronger muscle.

[Tyler883]

Originally posted by Alterac



24 hours for them to get sore i cant agree with.

Ive always found with myself that I get sore real quick (4-8 hours after), and recover in a day, and the lower volume routines just seem to show incredible results for my body. I have tried a lot more intense workout, and just seemed like a waste of time for me.

lactic acid is built when we work our muscles, aka "the burn" when we are working them hard, the soreness is that your body is repairing the micro-tears you have put in your muscles, making denser and stronger muscle.

Don't take my word on it, pls read about it at your own leisure:

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=...e+Search&meta=

[rahim]

Originally posted by Alterac


Ive always found with myself that I get sore real quick (4-8 hours after)

i think thats a nutrition problem, you need more carbs right after a workout

[1-Cent]

Originally posted by Wildcat


jay is a great bb, but i think his physique is kinda blocky. the guys a freak and everything but it looks like the muscle is just slapped on in big blocky chunks. im more partial to the classic v-taper physique like flex wheeler.

Thats true, to tell you the truth though I'm not really partial to any of the Pros of today, the GH guts and caveman foreheads ruin it for me, I mean they're supposed to be the pinicle of the male physique and they look deformed and bloated. The only exception (becoming less of an exception over time) is Dexter because he uses the least HGH and AAS out of any pro by far so his gut isn't so bad yet and his symetry is crazy, hes just a midget haha.

[Tyler883]

Originally posted by rahim


i think thats a nutrition problem, you need more carbs right after a workout

or a sign of a newbie. I get sore that quickly whenever i come back from falling off schedule for 3-4 weekas.

EDIT: I take that back, cause I still get sore for several days.