Ask a cop (split)

[StupidWade]

Hello skidmark.

It's very timely that you showed up here when you did. I recently received a questionable traffic ticket and I hope that maybe you can confirm something for me.

About a month or two ago, I got a ticket for 120km/h in an 80km/h zone. At the time that the cop pulled me over, the 120km/h figure seemed quite high, but there was no point arguing about it on the side of the road as he seemed quite upset about it.

The situation was that there were two vehicles pulled over in the right emergency lane of the road. Neither had any lights flashing. I assumed it was mechanical difficulty and I decided to get to the far left lane to give them more "safety room." As I was about to shoulder check, one of the stopped vehicles started to pull back into the right hand driving lane, the lane I was in. I was travelling about 80km/h when he pulled in front of me without signalling, and he was only going about 40 or 50km/h so I decided to proceed to pass him in the left lane. I shoulder checked and pulled into the left lane as he accelerated to road speed. I had to make a right hand turn at the next intersection, so I speeded up a bit so I could pull in front of him in the right lane.

After we both stopped at the next intersection and I made my right hand turn, he pulled me over, angry that I had passed him at 120km/h in the 80km/h zone. I told him I was sorry and that I had no excuse.

I took the ticket down to the Crown today, and on the ticket and in the cop's notes he says that he used a laser gun to determine my speed. I took a reservation on the plea bargain so I could do some research.

Everything I can find on the 'web and anyone I talk to tells me that a laser gun can not be accurately used from a moving police vehicle because the beam can not be accurately aimed while driving and because the accuracy drops significantly when the beam is shot thru/returns thru an angled windshield. This is why most laser speed traps are on a tripod on the side of the road, or the police are in a stopped vehicle and aiming the gun thru an opened side window.

Sorry for the long-winded story, but I wanted you to know the whole story before you gave me your opinion.

My driver's abstract has been clear for four years so I'd like to keep it that way if I can.

Thanks.

[Tyler883]

Hi Skidmark,

I just got a photo radar ticket in the mail. And, naturally, I'm really pissed about it....so I went surfing the web about it. And, I've learned that close to 25% of all traffic offenses go unserved.

I wondering if you could confirm the following?...

The first ticket in the mail is merely an invitation to pay the fine, I have not been convicted of any offense, nor have I been properly "served" a summons to court because it was unregistered mail.

If I choose to ignore the ticket, eventually someone will attempt to "serve" me with a summons to court. At this point, I still have not been convicted of any offense.

Unless, I am served a summons to court, I can not be automatically convicted by failure to appear.

My understanding is that I can only be served 2 ways: hand delivered to me, or if I sign for registered mail.

Important question: Can I be served if someone accepts the summons while I'm not present(ie my wife)?

[Tyler883]

Also, the motorvehicle registry can not stop me from renewing my registration if I have an unpaid offense of which I have not been convict of, yet.

And, if I show up at court day, plea guilty, and pay the fine. They can not penalize me. And, IMO, I am entitled to any "so called early payment discount because such a discount is effectively no different than a surcharge for anyone that shows up on their court date to enter a plea before paying the fine.

[Singel]

Been outta town for a few days, so I'm not sure if its ok for others to respond in here, Mods please delete if this is out of place...

@ Wade: I'd think its generally smarter to slow down in an unfamiliar/bizarre situation, but were I in the same situation I may have done the same as you, but u can certainly never go wrong with the brake pedal

And Tyler, from what I remember it is extremely rare for photo tickets to be thrown out/discounted, but atleast there are no demerits or insurance implications

[DayGlow]

Wade the laser is not used in a moving vehicle. It does not actually measure 'speed', but distance over time. From that you have 2 of the 3 variables needed for the formula to compute speed. I forget the actual number of 'bursts' from the laser from a trigger pull, but it measures the change in distance over the time ( a fraction of a second ) to compute speed.

Unfortuantly it does not say in the cop's notes if he was moving or stationary when he measured you. He could have hit you from the roadside as you past either coming or going, before he pulled you over. On in court will that come out.

Tyler883 you were 'served' the summons in the mail. I believe that the by hand method or registered mail is only for a summons that a failure to appear would mean a warrent for your arrest. You have recieved it and now are responsible to either pay the fine or plead not guilty. Read the summons you recieved front and back. It should have a 1st appearance court date on it and explain the options you have to deal with the ticket. ( I am going by common knowladge, as I have never seen a photo-radar summons, only a regular one so take the above advice with that thought. There should be a number on the summons you recieved. Give it a call and they will be better informed about the particulars with that ticket ).

As for serving a summons by hand, it can be given to a spouse or a close relative and it would be noted who and when the summons was served to.

[Tyler883]

http://www.sense.bc.ca/tickets.htm#how_tickets_served

Dayglow,

I reading a different interpretation of the laws from a BC website, but unfortunately I haven't been able to confirm that Alberta is similar, but willing to bet that it is.

Anyway, here's a cut and paste( link above):

When a mailed violation ticket has been identified as 'ignored' (45 days after the "Date Violation Ticket Completed", or if you dispute a mailed ticket and fail to appear at the hearing), the following steps will occur:
A new copy of the violation ticket will be delivered to the relevant regional process server.

Service will be attempted under the following conditions:
The process servers normally have only 28 days from receipt of the tickets to successfully serve them. However, they can ask for an extension if they believe service will ultimately be successful.
Service is to be attempted a minimum of 3 times. There is no maximum number of attempts.
Servers will try to serve at any reasonable time. They may appear anytime on evenings or weekends.
Process servers are advised "that this is not an exercise in skip tracing." (Skip-tracing refers to tracking down an individual who is hard to locate or has moved.) Tickets with invalid addresses are returned to the government and may be sent again for a second service period if the government can provide a better address.
Substitutional service is not permitted under any circumstances. (Substitutional service refers to leaving a ticket with another party, e.g. your spouse, landlord, child, parent, etc.)

[DayGlow]

are you talking about a BC or Alberta photo radar? Again, I don't actually deal with the photo radar, so I can't be 100%, but I wouldn't think it would be different from a regular summons. There should be clear instructions on the summons itself. I've seen people in court with photo radar tickets and the special constables that were running the van there for their evidence. I would imagine if the summons is similar to a regular one there should be a 1st appearance court date on it and instructions on the options you have to take care of the ticket.

If you ignore the summons I believe you are convicted in your absense and it goes onto your driving abstract and you can't renew your registration or license. But as I said before I haven't ever dealt with a photo ticket, so I can't say for 100% sure.

Also I don't believe Alberta uses process servers. I have served summons that are assigned to me. If I can't deliver them (moved, not a good address, etc) they are sent back and and will go on their driver abstract (remember you are required to update the registry with a change of address when you move for this reason).

[Tyler883]

To clarify, I live in Calgary and was mailed a Calgary photo radar ticket (but it was not sent by registered mail).

Yes you are right about the ticket, it has a whole bunch of info on the back of that suggests that I had better take it serious, or I could be found guilty by default when I fail to appear at my court date.(But I was never served in the same fashion that this BC website describes, and the BC website refers to the canadian charter of rights to explain why service is neccessary)

On the other hand, my photo radar ticket says nothing to suggest that is merely an invitation to pay a fine, and that a further service will occur if I ignore the ticket.

However, it occured to me that they may well be using the same ticket that officers would hand to you on the side of the road AND if you choose to ignore this ticket(which they have no way of proving that it ever reached me, unregistered canada post is not well known for it's reliability - LOL) .....they may have to "serve" it by hand just like an officer would on the side of the road.

Question: Alberta doesn't use process servers, what do they deem acceptable? registered mail? unregistered mail?

Question2: If I am convicted in my absence for an offence that the province can not prove was served to me, because they mailed the summons to me(unregistered).....

...don't you think that I would have grounds for appeal?

IMO, I would have plenty of charter rights to wave at the crown, and considering that it is only a minor traffic offense, I would hope that they would throw the whole case out.

And, perhaps based on violated rights, I might have a case to sue for any damages like lost time at work,and lawyers fees. But then again, this is Canada, we don't have a system that allows victims to "sue the bastards" - LOL.

[Tyler883]

more thinking out loud......please help me out where you can.....

... if Alberta doesn't use process servers, but they still need to prove that I was served, well that makes it that much easier for me to avoid being served, right?....All I need to do, is refuse to accept registered mail.

[DayGlow]

If someone is convicted in absence (again going from what I have seen in court, not directly dealt with it) I've seen people go before the JP and ask for a new trial date and are granted it.

For a regular summons it can be sent by mail, I have the option to do it (on the back I can fill out a document stating I can send by mail, registered mail, or have another officer deliver), but I don't know of any officer that has. We either serve the ticket ourselves or fill out a long-form summons, which is delivered by another officer. I don't know if tickets are sent out in registered mail. If a summons is deemed important enough, ie no insurance where a no show will result in a warrant for arrest, a uniformed officer is assigned the summons and they serve it either to the person or a spouse/close relative over 18 at the residence. Sure you can avoid the cop at the door, but it will eventually be sent back to ticket control and a full warrant issued, or just tagged to your registration. Now if try to re-register and find you have a ticket that was convicted in your absence, you can go before the JP and request a new trial, and it will be granted from what I have seen.

Now the only tickets I have ever seen mailed are photo radar. Anything that involves officers on the street is done through them serving the ticket themselves or having someone else do it. I've served tickets sent from the RCMP from accidents on people a few times.

I'm sure you could contest a mailed ticket as a charter issue, but that will be a lot of lawyering and money

[DayGlow]

I and should really make sure that the following disclaimer is adhered to:

I do only have 1.5 years experience and speaking out of general knowledge, not expertise on the subject. Do not take my word as 100% correct. I do not know the ins and outs of the process of the laws. Lawyers constantly argue this and will forever. I don't think any man is a master of our legal system.

[StupidWade]

Originally posted by DayGlow
Wade the laser is not used in a moving vehicle. It does not actually measure 'speed', but distance over time. From that you have 2 of the 3 variables needed for the formula to compute speed. I forget the actual number of 'bursts' from the laser from a trigger pull, but it measures the change in distance over the time ( a fraction of a second ) to compute speed.

Unfortuantly it does not say in the cop's notes if he was moving or stationary when he measured you. He could have hit you from the roadside as you past either coming or going, before he pulled you over. On in court will that come out.

Hey Dayglow, thanks for your opinion.

I think that on the notes it does say that he had just pulled away from a traffic stop. I know with 100% certainty that the officer was moving when I passed him. My only fear is that he will lie and say that he was stationary when he lasered me. At that point it becomes his word against mine, and you know who the judge will believe.

It's good to know that the laser can not be used from a moving vehicle. Now I just need to source some documentation about that so I can use it in court.

[StupidWade]

Regarding being served the summons on photo radar or photo red light tickets.

The first step is receiving the notice (I'll call it a ticket) that you've been charged with the offence, in this case, speeding or running a red light (I don't know the specific Traffic Safety Act sections.) The details are on this notice including time and location. At one point in the past (I don't think they do this any more) they actually had the photo shown on this ticket. I think they stopped doing that, however, so that less people will bother contesting the tickets.

This ticket says that you can plead guilty to the offense by mailing in payment for the fine. It should also say that if you want to contest the issue, you can appear in court on a certain date.

At this point you have three options.

1. Pay the fine, which means you are pleading guilty. At this point the charge will go onto your driver's abstract, but you will not get any 'points' on your license.

2. Go see a Crown Prosecutor at Rocky Mountain Plaza any time before the court date shown on the 'ticket' that you were mailed. You can usually get the fine reduced a bit (often by half on red light tickets) if you give a sob story to the CP. There are still no points on these tickets. If you have evidence that there is no way that you could be the person driving the vehicle when it was photographed (ie you were on vacation or in a coma or something) then the CP will likely just tear the ticket up. Unless the CP tears up the ticket for some reason, the (reduced) offence will still show up on your abstract.

3. Show up on your court date and try and fight the photo evidence there. This is the worst option. Judges are usually more miserable than Crown Prosecutors, so if you had decent evidence that could acquit you of the offence, you should probably have saved the court a bunch of time and just taken the evidence to the CP so that he could withdraw the charge.

If you choose neither of the three options, then your court date will come and when your name is called to step up and defend yourself, you won't be there. At this point the judge will 'convict you in absence.' They will now mail you a 'notice of conviction.' It will say something like "On this date you were convicted in absence of this charge. You must now pay the fine before a certain date. If you choose not to pay the fine before that, then a penalty surcharge ($20 or 10% of the fine whichever is greater) will be added to the fine and you will not be able to use vehicle registry services until it is paid."

Now you're screwed. If you want to register your car next year, then you'll have to pay the (now larger) fine.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks that any of these documents have to be served by an officer, or sent registered mail. They likely have to do that with more serious charges (perhaps even 'no insurance' tickets), but these dinky speeding/red light camera tickets are sent out a few hundred per day. Can you imagine if every one of the tickets that was ignored required $5 postage or 1 man hour out of a cop to deliver? The costs would be outrageous.

I've even had regular speeding tickets, where the officer handed me the ticket, and it goes according to the scenario above. No hand delivery, no registered letters.

This info is just from personal experience. I welcome anyone to add changes or corrections if something has changed within the last year or so.

[skidmark]

If I understand correctly, you are asking me about the use of the laser to measure speed.

It is a wonderful tool in that it allows you to carefully target a single vehicle to measure, but AFAIK, it must be used from a stationary position.

I'm sure one day we will have a moving mode setup, but I'm sure that we couldn't afford one today.

[kenny]

I would just like to remind users that while we do have some excellent people here to answer your questions they are not here to help you get out of your ticket if you got one.

I am sure they will ignore all requests for such info anyways

[StupidWade]

Originally posted by Singel
...but u can certainly never go wrong with the brake pedal

Tell that to the three drivers who rear ended each other on the on-ramp because the dumb-ass at the front of the line got spooked and decided to come to a complete stop instead of merging.

[Singel]

Originally posted by StupidWade


Tell that to the three drivers who rear ended each other on the on-ramp because the dumb-ass at the front of the line got spooked and decided to come to a complete stop instead of merging.

They're at fault. If they'd used the brakes too it wouldn't have been a problem...If they were looking back instead of forward on the onramp then they weren't merging properly, although the front guy is an idiot too

[skidmark]

I don't mind answering questions about how things work.

Legal advice is a different matter, and if I am uncomfortable, I will direct the person that posts to consult a lawyer.

[Tyler883]

Here's a lengthy post guys, I hope it explains very clearly on how I feel about things...

One of you gentlmen said "Can you imagine if every one of the tickets that was ignored required $5 postage or 1 man hour out of a cop to deliver? The costs would be outrageous."

Can you imagine Canada Post losing the ticket in the mail...
...your court date comes and goes...
....and you are found guilty of an offence in your absense....
...the first time you hear about it, you are at a vehicle registry office, and the clerk doesn't care if your on a tight budget, they want you to pay up NOW!...
...if you were driving like a mad man, and a police officer pulled you over, you would have about 45 days to pay the fine, but no, you are just an average working class father that was clocked at 59 kmh in the only 50 kmh zone on your 60kmh way to work. For this mistake, you get worse treatment than the mad man I just described.....
.....worse yet, maybe you have an innocent enough run in with a police officer and here brings you for a ride downtown to make you pay to fines. And, beleive me, there is never a convenient time to make a ride like this......
......anyway, your at the registry office, or the police station, so what do you do? You pay the fine, ofcourse......
....I can imagine how mad I'll be?......
.....what happened to your legal rights that are supposed to be protected by the CCHRF....
....section 11(a) "to be informed without unreasonable delay of the specific offence"....
.....this never happened?!?!?!? being informed about a charged offense ONLY after you have been convicted is definitely "unreasonable delay" in my books...
....then you consider that you missed the court date because of this unreasonable delay......
....you never seen the ticket, thus, you never seen the fine print on the bottom of the ticket that states "You have the right to retain and instruct counsel on this matter".....
....geez, you weren't informed about the charges, you were never given the opportunity to retain counsel...
....a court hearing was held......
...and in your absence, and in the absence of the counsel that you have the right to retain, you were found guilty!!!...
...you know what probably bugs you the most, all these rights were stomped on for a mere $103...
....the costs of $5 for a registered mail service must have been too costly....
...or the 1 hour of a police officer's time must be too costly until they are in a position where they choose to arrest you and bring you downtown....
....so you grumble about it to your friends and coworkers....
...they tell you to quite complaining, you were the one that was speeding, we have no empathy for you.....
....the the photo radar tickets go out to your friends, too...
...maybe, one of them will be lost in the mail, it'll help make you point......

[Singel]

quite complaining, you were the one that was speeding, we have no empathy for you.....

Police are stretched thin to begin with, but maybe they should just add $30 to the ticket to pay for someone to deliver it to you by hand...