Questions on new vehicle legal advice

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by ercchry
well, you probably have the depreciation coverage on your insurance right? try and "stop" while pointed right at their showroom, win, win

Now there's a client that has been paying attention!

I'm truly baffled at how one vehicle can be this bad. OP, you have the worst luck. I don't know how you're going to get out of this.

[A790]

I bet you Jalopnik would find this story super interesting

[Zhariak]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit


Now there's a client that has been paying attention!

I'm truly baffled at how one vehicle can be this bad. OP, you have the worst luck. I don't know how you're going to get out of this.

I know!

I see that you're an "Insurance Guru"...

Question, how does insurance work in a case like this? I've been told by various people I shouldn't be driving the vehicle knowing there's an issue with the brakes, as this could void my insurance, just by knowing they aren't functioning properly.

Dealer has had a stance of "Cannot duplicate braking concerns", so technically I'm assuming this removes their liability if something does go wrong.

Most recently I demonstrated the brake failure by 3 slow applications of the brake, in which case the foreman said this was normal and was due to me depleting the brake booster. When I asked the dealership to include this on the service work order, they put:

XXXX ***DMXXXX ROAD TEST. WAS NOT ABLE TO VERIFY CONCERN. ROAD TEST
WITH CUSTOMER DRIVING. WHEN SLOWING FROM 15KM HE RAPIDLY PUSHED THE
BRAKE PEDAL ABOUT 6 TIMES IN LESS THAN 5 SEC. PEDAL THAN GOT HARD AND
DROPPED. HE HAS DEPLETED THE BRAKE BOOSTER RESERVOIR .ADVISED CUSTOMER
THE BRAKE SYSTEM TO NOT DESIGNED TO BE OPERATED IN THIS MANNER. EVEN
THOUGH YOU STILL HAVE THE BASE BRAKES WITH OUT THE ASSIST OF THE BRAKE
BOOSTER THE BRAKE EFFORT TO STOP IS INCREASED. BRAKES OPERATE NORMAL
WHEN OPERATED AS DESIGNED***CLOSE OUT TO N/C TO CUSTOMER. DO NOT PAY
TECH. XXXXXX ***DMXXXX AUTH CUSTOMER SATI FACTION ONE TIME ONLY NFF N/C
TO GM***


To say the least the "6 times randomly" was an exaggeration, again I'm assuming this was stated this way to remove any liability on their end.

And again, just for the record, failure occurs sometimes on the first press. But happens regularly on occasions where the pedal has to be pressed a couple times in 10 seconds, or on occasions where the amount of braking changes with a single press but adjusting braking amount (examples: stop signs, yield signs, navigating through tight spaces, backing up, braking behind people who aren't braking at a consistent rate, etc...).

Lets say I jump in the vehicle tomorrow, and just lose brakes and get in an accident. Is my insurance void since I've been aware of the brake loss?

Let's bring up the example from days before the message appeared on my DIC, when I was stopping slowly at a red light downtown, pedal dropped and I rolled in to the crosswalk. Let's say there was a pedestrian and I accidentally ran over them with a tire or something. Am I covered with everything that has happened, or what?

[Jeeper1986]

aren't he breaks oil operated.... this isn't a damn air brake where u lose ur brakes because u run out of damn air this is really messed up

[Brent.ff]

Gotta say, I had no idea what CISL 650 is until this thread. You gotta go a lot bigger...GM probably laughed if you informed them of that.

Invite the Go Public guys to hop in and drive it..

[revelations]

Originally posted by Zhariak
Let's bring up the example from days before the message appeared on my DIC, when I was stopping slowly at a red light downtown, pedal dropped and I rolled in to the crosswalk. Let's say there was a pedestrian and I accidentally ran over them with a tire or something. Am I covered with everything that has happened, or what?

Unlikely.

In the event of a mechanical/electrical issue causing an accident, its years of paperwork and your lawyer(s) going against the manufacturers legal army, trying to prove the root cause.

Even then, you may still wind up at partial fault because the lawyer/judge will ask why you chose to drive a vehicle knowing that it was defective. Mind you, one could argue that "GM said I was safe".

If you are at fault, the onus will be on you to prove to your insurance company that there was a pre-existing mechanical/electrical defect that caused this accident.

Given GM's acknowledgement (and dismissal) of your issue, you will have a hard time getting anywhere with them, post-accident.


----------

[Zhariak]

Originally posted by revelations


Unlikely.

In the event of a mechanical/electrical issue causing an accident, its years of paperwork and your lawyer(s) going against the manufacturers legal army, trying to prove the root cause.

Even then, you may still wind up at partial fault because the lawyer/judge will ask why you chose to drive a vehicle knowing that it was defective. Mind you, one could argue that "GM said I was safe".

If you are at fault, the onus will be on you to prove to your insurance company that there was a pre-existing mechanical/electrical defect that caused this accident.

Given GM's acknowledgement (and dismissal) of your issue, you will have a hard time getting anywhere with them, post-accident.


----------

That's exactly what I'm concerned about. That's the reason why I haven't really driven the vehicle in all of 2015... That's why I'm still fishy about jumping in the driver seat and taking it out on the streets. I was nervous to even call my insurance company and ask for their opinion, just in case it flagged them to cancel the insurance since I would notify them of a potential problem (which would no doubt effect the financing on the vehicle, since it has to remain insured while financing is in place).

The only thing I could think of that would help my case, is in the event of an accident, hoping the computer would record the amount of force I exert on the brakes, and that the vehicle itself wasn't stopping... But I have no idea what is recorded, if pressures are recorded, or if it would simply record that the brakes are applied, and not the force on the pedal.

This is what sucks so much about the situation...

[bourge73]

Your only recourse now is to go public ....
I mean you did give them a chance ?
Now unleash the Kracken!

[CompletelyNumb]

Yeah dude, full on publicity on this lemon. Get news teams to drive it. Talk about how you've been paying for it for half a year and it's never been driven since it's broken, cant afford your groceries.

Smear the shit out of the dealership that sold it to you too.

Seriously. You have few options left.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Zhariak


That's exactly what I'm concerned about. That's the reason why I haven't really driven the vehicle in all of 2015... That's why I'm still fishy about jumping in the driver seat and taking it out on the streets. I was nervous to even call my insurance company and ask for their opinion, just in case it flagged them to cancel the insurance since I would notify them of a potential problem (which would no doubt effect the financing on the vehicle, since it has to remain insured while financing is in place).

The only thing I could think of that would help my case, is in the event of an accident, hoping the computer would record the amount of force I exert on the brakes, and that the vehicle itself wasn't stopping... But I have no idea what is recorded, if pressures are recorded, or if it would simply record that the brakes are applied, and not the force on the pedal.

This is what sucks so much about the situation...

The EDR will record that brakes were applied. If there was enough force to activate the ABS, that would be recorded as well. Your best bet (if you choose to drive the vehicle) is to attach a camera to the foot well area and the front passenger area, looking at your dash specifically. That way braking can be monitored and the dash (if any warnings come up) can be recorded.

My guess is that you will take zero action otherwise (eg. confront dealer, protest, etc. as has been recommended by so many others), the least you can do is cover your ass so it doesent end up he-said, she-said in court.

Perhaps create a video log, something that can be shown in court. Start by outlining the issues NOW on camera, before any event happens.

[Cos]

.

[Zhariak]

Originally posted by revelations


The EDR will record that brakes were applied. If there was enough force to activate the ABS, that would be recorded as well. Your best bet (if you choose to drive the vehicle) is to attach a camera to the foot well area and the front passenger area, looking at your dash specifically. That way braking can be monitored and the dash (if any warnings come up) can be recorded.

My guess is that you will take zero action otherwise (eg. confront dealer, protest, etc. as has been recommended by so many others), the least you can do is cover your ass so it doesent end up he-said, she-said in court.

Perhaps create a video log, something that can be shown in court. Start by outlining the issues NOW on camera, before any event happens.

Oh, I'm ready to go to town with this... Don't you worry.... I've just been following the professional course of action. Making sure I give opportunities to various parties for the potential of resolution...

Also, I'm a self-employed dude, so finding time to waste is difficult. But I still find time to deal with it.

It just seams that every time I do what I'm asked, more BS unfolds. Adds to my case.

[Jeeper1986]

record every thing they say to u on the phone and emails

[Zhariak]

Originally posted by Jeeper1986
record every thing they say to u on the phone and emails

I have everything including all service work orders, and e-mails going back to the beginning.

There's a bunch of "WTF" type things said verbally I have no record of, but I have tons of stuff from e-mail, everything and anything...

I even have an e-mail from a service adviser attributing the braking issue to codes that were stored in the steering column module. For example from February 3rd:

"they attributed the braking issue to be related to the codes that were stored in the module for the steering column that was not set up properly when it was replaced - those 2 modules communicate - since we updated that, it has not been an issue since."

(and yes, this was a direct copy/paste from an e-mail)

The paper trail I have shows an absolute gong show took place with this.

[CompletelyNumb]

Which dealership?

[Zhariak]

Originally posted by CompletelyNumb
Which dealership?

I'm not naming the dealership yet. I'm not at that point.

[Zhariak]

Originally posted by Zhariak



(Losing brakes going down decline in to underground parkade)













[/B]

Even with these videos, presented to the dealer so that they would be provided to the engineer, all but one were all marked as "Dealer cannot duplicate concern", and the dealer didn't even add one of the issues to the service work order (I believe the one that wasn't added was the vehicle getting stuck in park).

And as I quote from the last phone call with GM Canada ERT:

"So these issues that you mention too, some of them are either the design of the vehicle, or they're actually something that was not duplicated when compared to another vehicle"

(The issues) "Some of them as I said, definitely you know, the field engineer can Identify, we aren't saying they aren't there, we are saying corrective action is not required"

"The seat as an example, he can definitely induce that operation each and every time, but it is the way the seat is designed in the vehicle, it will do what it's doing"

"So I don't think from a vehicle standpoint I'm ever going to have you 100% satisfied in that vehicle, and that's exactly why I still went down the road as I said with the management incentive"

[relyt92]

Your patience is astounding.

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by Zhariak


I know!

I see that you're an "Insurance Guru"...

Question, how does insurance work in a case like this? I've been told by various people I shouldn't be driving the vehicle knowing there's an issue with the brakes, as this could void my insurance, just by knowing they aren't functioning properly.

Dealer has had a stance of "Cannot duplicate braking concerns", so technically I'm assuming this removes their liability if something does go wrong.

Most recently I demonstrated the brake failure by 3 slow applications of the brake, in which case the foreman said this was normal and was due to me depleting the brake booster. When I asked the dealership to include this on the service work order, they put:

XXXX ***DMXXXX ROAD TEST. WAS NOT ABLE TO VERIFY CONCERN. ROAD TEST
WITH CUSTOMER DRIVING. WHEN SLOWING FROM 15KM HE RAPIDLY PUSHED THE
BRAKE PEDAL ABOUT 6 TIMES IN LESS THAN 5 SEC. PEDAL THAN GOT HARD AND
DROPPED. HE HAS DEPLETED THE BRAKE BOOSTER RESERVOIR .ADVISED CUSTOMER
THE BRAKE SYSTEM TO NOT DESIGNED TO BE OPERATED IN THIS MANNER. EVEN
THOUGH YOU STILL HAVE THE BASE BRAKES WITH OUT THE ASSIST OF THE BRAKE
BOOSTER THE BRAKE EFFORT TO STOP IS INCREASED. BRAKES OPERATE NORMAL
WHEN OPERATED AS DESIGNED***CLOSE OUT TO N/C TO CUSTOMER. DO NOT PAY
TECH. XXXXXX ***DMXXXX AUTH CUSTOMER SATI FACTION ONE TIME ONLY NFF N/C
TO GM***


To say the least the "6 times randomly" was an exaggeration, again I'm assuming this was stated this way to remove any liability on their end.

And again, just for the record, failure occurs sometimes on the first press. But happens regularly on occasions where the pedal has to be pressed a couple times in 10 seconds, or on occasions where the amount of braking changes with a single press but adjusting braking amount (examples: stop signs, yield signs, navigating through tight spaces, backing up, braking behind people who aren't braking at a consistent rate, etc...).

Lets say I jump in the vehicle tomorrow, and just lose brakes and get in an accident. Is my insurance void since I've been aware of the brake loss?

Let's bring up the example from days before the message appeared on my DIC, when I was stopping slowly at a red light downtown, pedal dropped and I rolled in to the crosswalk. Let's say there was a pedestrian and I accidentally ran over them with a tire or something. Am I covered with everything that has happened, or what?

I've been following your situation and thinking about the insurance implications. If you end up in an accident due to the loss of braking ability (rear-end someone for example) you will be found at fault. As part of your statement to the adjuster I can only assume you would disclose the prior braking issues with the vehicle. At that point the insurance company can chose to do one of two things: First they could ignore your comments and proceed with settling the claim as normal. And honestly if there is less than $20,000 damage, that's probably the route they would take. The second option would be for the insurance company to look into the braking issue and potentially commence action against GM / the dealership and say that they are liable. Obviously there would need to be some pretty big money at play here for an insurance company to take a swing at someone like GM. If you end up running down a pedestrian and the insurance company is facing a $850,000 injury lawsuit because you put someone in a wheelchair, you better believe the shark-like lawyers are coming to the table.

The safe bet here is to not drive the vehicle. However that's not very realistic either. Chances are that if you continue to drive the vehicle and hit something, you're going to get hung with an at-fault claim on your record. Even if the insurance company goes after GM / the dealership, that stuff takes years to work through the system and you'll be paying increased rates the entire time.

I know which dealership is involved but I won't disclose it as per your wishes to date. I can say though that it's not a giant surprise. I have behind the scenes knowledge of a lot of dealer operations in this town and the players involved aren't a shock at all.

You might be sick of hearing it but I'll echo what most others have already said, the vehicle isn't safe and GM has ignored you. They will keep ignoring you until this is escalated well beyond private emails. Media attention is warranted at this stage. Hell it was warranted along time ago. You've been far too nice and accommodating.

Have you considered taking the vehicle to a different dealership to see if they can duplicate / find the issue? If that has happened already I apologize for missing it.

[sputnik]

This may sound really old school, but I would recommend sending a letter to GM Canada and GM USA.

A friends son-in-law had a lemon of a Dodge Ram (surprise!) and took it to every dealership in the Calgary/Lethbridge area and they just kept fixing the symptoms and not the problem.

He then sent letters to the head offices detailing his experiences with copies of the work orders (and in your case a link to this thread would help) and he was quickly given a refund for his purchase.

I would recommend taking the vehicle to other dealerships as well. This shows that there is a problem with the vehicle and not just a single tech and a single dealership.

TL;DR - Don't try and convince the dealership you are unhappy. Go to the corporate head office.