Attawapiskat Crisis

[Sugarphreak]

Story from CBC:

The federal government will send 15 modular homes to the troubled Attawapiskat reserve in northern Ontario to help deal with the community's housing crisis, Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Duncan says.

Duncan told reporters in Ottawa that the homes, which cost around $1.2 million, would be sent to the remote reserve near James Bay when winter roads to the community are open, likely in January.

Duncan reiterated the government's offer to either evacuate some residents from the community or move them to temporary lodgings at a sports centre or healing lodge.

"Our government has prioritized the urgent health and safety needs of the residents of Attawapiskat," Duncan said.

About 1,800 people live in Attawapiskat, where a severe housing shortage has forced families to live in tents and unheated trailers, some without access to running water and electricity. Many others live in crowded, substandard housing.

Local leaders declared a state of emergency at the end of October.

Crisis has been 'mishandled'
Duncan again said the government would conduct a comprehensive, independent audit of the band's finances.

"It's clear that significant investment in the community has not generated the results that the residents of Attawapiskat deserve and all Canadians expect."

New Democrat MP Charlie Angus, who represents northern Ontario area, said moving in extra homes was a good move but the federal government needs to do more.

"Unfortunately, I think they mishandled this file all along," he said.

Sometimes the winter roads do not open until the end of January, Angus said, and weather conditions could turn extremely harsh in the meantime.

He also said moving people into the sports centre wasn't a viable option.

"It's a big ice rink with a shed on top," he said. "You can't put people there."

Greg Shisheesh, a community activist from Attawapiskat, told CBC News elders in the community say the winter roads might not open until February.

He also rejected the plan to move some residents to the healing centre because it is far from Attawapiskat and has no plumbing.

Shisheesh also asked why Duncan has yet to visit the area to "hear the cries of the whole reserve of Attawapiskat."

Manager earns $1,300 a day
Duncan on Friday again urged Attawapiskat's leaders to work with the government's third-party manager.

The move last week to appoint Jacques Marion, from the accounting and consulting firm BDO Canada LLP, to oversee the band's finances at a cost of $1,300 a day drew the ire of many aboriginal leaders.

Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence has described the move as "very shameful."

Duncan said Marion's salary would be drawn from the band's governance funds and wouldn't hinder the delivery of social programs, including education.

Angus described the appointment of Marion, which he said could end up costing the band $300,000 a year, as a punishment.

"That will cripple this band," Angus said.

Marion was told to leave the reserve shortly after arriving but still remains in control of the community's funding, according to a release from Aboriginal Affairs.

The government says it has given Attawapiskat around $90 million since 2006, including $4.3 million for on-reserve housing. It has also ordered an independent audit of the community's finances.

Attawapiskat is only the most recent example of how overcrowding and dilapidated infrastructure on reserves can lead to community-wide health and safety issues.
Source:http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/12/09/attawapiskat-duncan-conference.html

[b_t]

Sounds to me like the reserve has some serious corruption problems. $4.3 mil can buy a lot of housing.

[Ven]

The government says it has given Attawapiskat around $90 million since 2006, including $4.3 million for on-reserve housing.

Having a hard time swallowing that mismanagement isn't an issue here. But it is only $10,000 per person each of those 5 years, if these actually is 1800 band members there. I still think they should build housing out of sea cans there. Or concrete. We don't get good value for our money in pulling up more disposable ATCO trailers of trying to refurbish the shit that's already up there.

[Sugarphreak]

....

[R-Audi]

Be interesting to see what the Chiefs house looks like...
From what I understand (and I could be wrong) but the Chiefs are given the money, and distribute it as they see fit.
Like paying a manager 475k a year!!

While corruption plays a major part, I dont believe some of these groups are educated enough in terms of finance.
I know out in Windermere BC you see a large family living in a trailer with new Shiny trucks sitting out front.

[sputnik]

Generally I find him a pretty obviously biased loudmouth, but this time Ezra Levant hits the nail on the head.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/understanding-attawapiskat/1305119208001

[codetrap]

$34M per year. $70k per family.

Fuck.. I watched that video and almost got a tear in my eye. He may be an ass, and he may be abrasive as hell, but he's absofuckinglutely dead on.

[clem24]

I posted about this in the Occupy thread but I'll repeat a bit here...

I've worked in some of these Northern communities. Sure the chief gets to enjoy many benefits like shiny new trucks every few years and yes a few dollars gets "misplaced" here and there, but in the grand scheme of things, corruption isn't as rampant as you might think. I'll try to give some insight on what happens with "funds".

The band is audited every single year. They are REQUIRED to receive an unqualified audit opinion. If not, then funds are either withheld or cut in subsequent periods. Many projects also require interim reports before the next batch of funds are released. This is why (and rightly so) they are pissed off that Mr. Harper and Mr. Duncan are making this out to be a case of mismanaged funds.

A bit of background on these projects: the government pays the band X number of dollars to sustain them based on their population, etc... And then on top of that, they propose "projects" that they will take on each year. Each project proposes its intent and funds required. If it passes, then funds are released at intervals specified in the project proposal (they are almost NEVER paid out in full at the onset). So in Attawapiskat's case, they received about $18M a year ($90/5). Maybe $2-3 of that would've been for the community and the rest for projects and remember, these are projects that the government themselves approve.

The projects are intended to create employment in the community as well as improve living conditions, infrastructure, or provide a service, etc.... As an example of a project, in one community, the band contracts (or creates a project) with the government to maintain the ice road. They will propose something like we need $2M - $200k to pay the workers (usually people in the community), $1M to buy new equipment, $700k for supplies, and $100k for the band as administration charges (say to maintain the band office, hire admin staff, etc..).

Now as for the media pointing out a new Zamboni and ice rinks and stuff... Remember again that those are individual projects. They would've sent a proposal to buy the Zamboni, and the government would've sent them money JUST to buy that one thing alone. The are forbidden to spend the money on anything else. And on that note, if they hadn't proposed to buy the Zamboni, they would've never received the money for it in the first place. At no point does the government send a cheque for $18M and then tells the chief to go wild. The funds are actually very well controlled.

Now, having said all that, what's not clear to me is whether the community recognized ahead of time if they had a housing crisis or not. Also, even if they did, if the government did not consider building houses or apartments a "viable" project, they would never release funds or approve such a project to build houses. So if there was ever a mismanagement, then that would be it - the band should've proposed housing projects in the past.

Of course the flip side is, this community really should be abandoned if it's not economically viable but there's a whole lot of issues with that (i.e. being a reserve, etc...). Also, they complain that DeBeers comes on their land and rapes it dry. But instead of looking at it as a neg, it should've been the other way around. They should've worked there. But I don't have to repeat how these people feel about actually having to work (there was an article that showed the community had very little interest in working at the mine - no surprise there). But I'll reserve further judgment on that.

[Maxt]

Then add on what De Beers has kicked in from the Diamond Lease... Interesting that De Beers was prevented from disclosing how much direct compensation they payed to the Reserve, not by their own choice but by the Reserve' Managements' choice
Something is seriously wrong with the management here, and the "You don't understand our KUL-CHER" was played pretty quickly here.. It is really disappointing to have Atleo spewing the same old money Schtick to, so much for new choices for Aboriginals, guys like that are the problem, and they know it, they are just self serving.

[-relk-]

Originally posted by clem24
Of course the flip side is, this community really should be abandoned if it's not economically viable but there's a whole lot of issues with that (i.e. being a reserve, etc...). Also, they complain that DeBeers comes on their land and rapes it dry. But instead of looking at it as a neg, it should've been the other way around. They should've worked there. But I don't have to repeat how these people feel about actually having to work (there was an article that showed the community had very little interest in working at the mine - no surprise there). But I'll reserve further judgment on that.

In the video posted above, the guy mentions that DeBeers set aside $49m for "aboriginal spending", which I am assuming meant hiring, compensation, etc...

I have very little knowledge on this subject, but from the little I have read/watched, it appears that this money should have been going into building proper housing for the community, which it didnt. Now they are complaining that they government, who gave them the money in the first place, is sending in third parties to sort everything out. Sounds to me like the "chiefs" are getting a little nervous.

In regards to your last comment, is that really the mentality on reserves? Or just for this particular one? It really bugs me that they would think that way, just sit back and take the free money, not helping our country in a productive way. It will not end well if people continue to have that mentality.

Ill stop myself there before I go off on a tangent.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Maxt]

That would be next to impossible though, since the Native Population is far greater than it ever was historically trying to live in a much smaller land area, with animal populations that are nomadic still outside the reserve area.
That has been one of the biggest technical issues of having reserves, these bands were actually a lot smaller at one time chasing animals over an entire continent, of which some of those animals no longer exist in the numbers they once did.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Maxt
That would be next to impossible though, since the Native Population is far greater than it ever was historically trying to live in a much smaller land area, with animal populations that are nomadic still outside the reserve area.
That has been one of the biggest technical issues of having reserves, these bands were actually a lot smaller at one time chasing animals over an entire continent, of which some of those animals no longer exist in the numbers they once did.

Living traditionally also means DIEING traditionally. If the area you can utilize becomes smaller, you don't continue to grow your population. :nut:

[codetrap]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Living traditionally also means DIEING traditionally. If the area you can utilize becomes smaller, you don't continue to grow your population. :nut:

What else do they have to do but take gov't money, sit in their hovels, and breed like rabbits? Not like they're working for a living..

[Maxt]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Living traditionally also means DIEING traditionally. If the area you can utilize becomes smaller, you don't continue to grow your population. :nut:
Which then you could argue that the reserve system has actually been better for them comparative to traditional living, larger population, longer life span, but comparative to us common working folk , worse. Which circles back to abandoning the whole reserve/indian act to make life better in a measurable sense.

[SKR]

I don't know enough about it, but I don't get how this happens. I mean, if my place went to shit, and the people looking after it wouldn't or couldn't fix it, I would just leave. I wouldn't say "we need help in Attawapiskat", I'd say "I need to get myself the fuck out of Attawapiskat". Why do they stay there?

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by SKR
I don't know enough about it, but I don't get how this happens. I mean, if my place went to shit, and the people looking after it wouldn't or couldn't fix it, I would just leave. I wouldn't say "we need help in Attawapiskat", I'd say "I need to get myself the fuck out of Attawapiskat". Why do they stay there?

^^ I agree with this. GTFO.

From what I have read, the 90 MM figur Harper is using actually includes all of the municipal services, education AND housing for the entire community since 2006.

Imagine what it costs to run utilities and schools in the far north - it's a LOT. The same article I read claimed that only 1 million was left over for housing out of the 90 million total, and that no money has been actually set aside by the government for housing.

Now that being said - These people are getting free municipal services in the far north without paying taxes - Whos fault is it they don't have houses to live in? What the hell were they living in before this big 'housing crisis' magically appeared out of thin air?

If theres no houses there, then move. If you don't want to move then build one like everyone else. I think thats the message Harper is trying to give these people. They aren't just going to sit up there and freeze to death.

I was also under the impression that First Nations were not subject to government audits. I seem to remember the liberals trying to ram that through in the early 2000's and ALL of the bands in Canada threatened to blockade the Trans Canada Highway. - Cant find a link to this though...

[Pinner]

Natives have been mismanaging money for as long as we've been giving it to them because it has no value to them, it's free, they don't earn it... It's extorted, not earned.

And Atttawapiskat is not in the far north, unless you consider Calgary is in the far north.

[AndyL]

Dunno, I can see both sides of this...

90mil between 2800 "members" is 32,142$/member over 5 years... 6k/member/yr... That's about what the alberta government spends on healthcare per person - never mind anything else...

The cost of hauling anything in there is ridiculous, anything they buy up there is going to be 4-5x the cost of what we see... It's so damn isolated, the only business is the band council... What are they going to do - they'll never have a highway in/out, they probably don't have communication lines adequate to operate a call center or anything else (even if they had enough infrastructure to support that, town runs off diesel generators FFS).

[masoncgy]

Originally posted by AndyL
90mil between 2800 "members" is 32,142$/member over 5 years... 6k/member/yr... That's about what the alberta government spends on healthcare per person - never mind anything else...

Health care funding is generated through taxes though, so really, we are sharing in the benefit of our labour & business. You put in, you take out, just as it should be.

The natives contribute very little (if anything) to that tax base. Reserves such as these are a black hole. That's why everyone is all up in arms about the situation... millions upon millions of dollars is being poured in with no end in sight and nothing is improving.

Places like these, where the population is completely dependent on government handouts and there is zero opportunity for economic development or self-sufficiency, should be shut down.

[Adrenaline101]

I completely understand where they are coming from. They chose to live way the fuck up there, so they can retain their own lands, culture and all of that dying out bs. Then why dont they be happy without sewer, power, housing, tv and all that, that they did for the hundreds of years during the time that the culture they are preserving existed.
Native culture is the most 2 faced bullshit possible, and I am allowed to blow on the non PC whistle, because I am native american.

There are thousands of issues like this all over the reserves and communities, and every time one comes up in the media there is a bunch of opinionated people on the internet that get to express their thoughts on the matter. Who the fuck cares. I wish I could bury my own people in the shit they've created for themselves.

Fuck, I think that the government of england should give me a fuck ton of money because the other half of my family is irish, I hear we got the shit oppressed out of us for a long time.

Hey black americans!! you should get free housing, your own little community to live in and everything, just because your ancestors were slaves and not treated equally.

Close the fucking topic :whocares: :whocares:

[rx7_turbo2]

Agreed with the above.

Without gov't intervention (read: blank cheque) this community would not exist, at least not with the current population numbers. There is something fundamentally WRONG with that. It's a joke and highlights exactly how messed up the whole native situation in this country is.

[Ryan Shawcross]

I think that there's something fundamentally wrong with a country like Canada that exists only due to land stolen from the native people of this country. Why don't all the white people just go back to Europe, that would solve everything. Natives got along just fine in this country before we showed up and started telling them to grow vegetables in rows and pay for things like insurance and cell phones.

If you don't want to hold up your end of the bargains you made two hundred years ago, the answer is simple - go the f-ck home.

[masoncgy]

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10094261.jpg

[FraserB]

Better listen to him guys, he's Irish. He knows all about people getting along.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by AndyL
Dunno, I can see both sides of this...

90mil between 2800 "members" is 32,142$/member over 5 years... 6k/member/yr... That's about what the alberta government spends on healthcare per person - never mind anything else...



I saw on the news that it was $46M/year. Not 90M over 5...



[i]
If you don't want to hold up your end of the bargains you made two hundred years ago, the answer is simple - go the f-ck home. [/B]

Isn't Canada only 144 years old?

[Ryan Shawcross]

Many of the treaties were signed by the British government well before "Canada" was formed as a country. Just because a new country was formed doesn't get the whiteys out of their treaty obligations. If that were the case, I'm pretty sure the natives would jump at the chance to get their land and mineral rights back.

I feel pity for a country that still has a Governor General (Queen's viceroy) as their head of state. I'm ashamed to be a Canadian. Nobody got a more raw deal than the native Canadian - and I mean nobody.

[mark4091]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross
I think that there's something fundamentally wrong with a country like Canada that exists only due to land stolen from the native people of this country. Why don't all the white people just go back to Europe, that would solve everything. Natives got along just fine in this country before we showed up and started telling them to grow vegetables in rows and pay for things like insurance and cell phones.

If you don't want to hold up your end of the bargains you made two hundred years ago, the answer is simple - go the f-ck home.

Yeah sounds logical.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact natives fill their childrens heads with hate for the white man and his culture yet seem to support the oldest part of our culture.... I'll give you a hint, starts with A.

[hampstor]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross
I think that there's something fundamentally wrong with a country like Canada that exists only due to land stolen from the native people of this country. Why don't all the white people just go back to Europe, that would solve everything. Natives got along just fine in this country before we showed up and started telling them to grow vegetables in rows and pay for things like insurance and cell phones.

If you don't want to hold up your end of the bargains you made two hundred years ago, the answer is simple - go the f-ck home.

You're right. We should honour the original contract to the letter:



His Majesty also agrees that next year, and annually afterwards for ever, He will cause to be paid to the said Indians in cash, at suitable places and dates, of which the said Indians shall be duly notified, four dollars, the same, unless there be some exceptional reason, to be paid only to the heads of families for those belonging thereto.

http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100028863#chp1

I should note, I only got interested in this when people kept talking about the treaties/agreements and went looking for the original treaties themselves to see what Canada actually agreed to at that time.

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by hampstor


You're right. We should honour the original contract to the letter:



http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100028863#chp1

Sounds great. Show me anywhere in any treaty where it says that the white man can extract oil from the Athabasca oil sands without approval from the natives. I'm pretty sure they'd take all that oil revenue over four dollars a year.

[FraserB]

They do receive oil and gas revenues, leases would never be in place without consent. They see hundreds of millions from individual companies, it is their responsibility to manage that money wisely.

As much as he is a bigoted mouthpiece, Ezra Levant is right. Nothing will change until everyone is treated equally as people. They scream about equal treatment, but when the money tap turns off to give them that equality, its racism.

[Ryan Shawcross]

I'm talking ALL the oil and gas revenues, not some token amount to fob off the band leader. What's that you say? They won't have the resources to develop it themselves? Too bad. Let the oil sit in the earth. F the stealing white man.

[FraserB]

Is just pennies.

http://www.shell.ca/home/content/can-en/aboutshell/media_centre/news_and_media_releases/2011/0611aboriginal_spend.html

They are governed under legal contracts drawn up by their ancestors, same as everyone in Canada. Both parties reached the treaties with the knowledge available at the time and they are still legally binding. If they want to tap into more of the money they are free to do what "the white man" does, get a job in O&G or start a business and take part. Being native should not entitle you to something more or something less. You cant complain about being treated unequally in one breath and then demand more money for nothing with the next.

[hampstor]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross


Sounds great. Show me anywhere in any treaty where it says that the white man can extract oil from the Athabasca oil sands without approval from the natives. I'm pretty sure they'd take all that oil revenue over four dollars a year.

Isn't that what the treaties essential are about though? Allowing the 'white man' to do whatever they want with the rest of the land outside the reserves?

Don't get me wrong - like many people here, I used to believe that the fault was squarely on the First Nations.

Canada and the church has done so much damage to an entire generation of First Nations with miss-managed, miss-guided assimilation programs such as the residential schools. That damage will still likely be felt for generations to come. Our country basically created a large group that is now dependent on government to survive.

Throwing money at the problem at this stage isn't going to help them get back on their feet. It's probably going to be decades before Canada figures out how to fix the mess that was created well over a century ago.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross
I'm talking ALL the oil and gas revenues, not some token amount to fob off the band leader. What's that you say? They won't have the resources to develop it themselves? Too bad. Let the oil sit in the earth. F the stealing white man.

Jesus.. ban this dipshit troll account already.

[Cos]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross
I'm ashamed to be a Canadian.

Good for you

[xnvy]

Originally posted by codetrap


Jesus.. ban this dipshit troll account already. :werd:

Ezra hit the nail on the head. That volume of money flowing into a community of that size is just insane.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by hampstor
Canada and the church has done so much damage to an entire generation of First Nations with miss-managed, miss-guided assimilation programs such as the residential schools. That damage will still likely be felt for generations to come. Our country basically created a large group that is now dependent on government to survive.

Throwing money at the problem at this stage isn't going to help them get back on their feet. It's probably going to be decades before Canada figures out how to fix the mess that was created well over a century ago.

This is the part that always gets glossed over. The original treaties dealt with land rights. A lot of the current negotiations go above and beyond that to deal with all the shit the government did since those treaties were signed that fucked over the native population.

Until the last generation that was abused under government supervision (mostly under proxies like the church) has passed on, and likely until their children have mostly passed on, the government doesn't have a lot of leverage without opening a can of worms. It's hard to dole out "tough love" to people when the last time the government did that there was a lot of human rights violations, especially with people still alive that serve as examples.

[Nissanaddict]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross
I think that there's something fundamentally wrong with a country like Canada that exists only due to land stolen from the native people of this country. Why don't all the white people just go back to Europe, that would solve everything. Natives got along just fine in this country before we showed up and started telling them to grow vegetables in rows and pay for things like insurance and cell phones.

If you don't want to hold up your end of the bargains you made two hundred years ago, the answer is simple - go the f-ck home.

:rofl: I'd go back to Europe...if Germany and Russia paid me for their (much more recent) atrocities to my people, and I could slack off for the rest of my life.

[Idratherbsidewayz]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross


Sounds great. Show me anywhere in any treaty where it says that the white man can extract oil from the Athabasca oil sands without approval from the natives. I'm pretty sure they'd take all that oil revenue over four dollars a year.

Natives are totally unsuitable to live in our BETTER society. It's this, or genocide... you pick!

[Type_S1]

fak the natives....

They need to move and get jobs for real...stop wasting canadian money when you don't want to do anything for canada other then occupy spaces drunk.

[hampstor]

Originally posted by Antonito


This is the part that always gets glossed over. The original treaties dealt with land rights. A lot of the current negotiations go above and beyond that to deal with all the shit the government did since those treaties were signed that fucked over the native population.

Until the last generation that was abused under government supervision (mostly under proxies like the church) has passed on, and likely until their children have mostly passed on, the government doesn't have a lot of leverage without opening a can of worms. It's hard to dole out "tough love" to people when the last time the government did that there was a lot of human rights violations, especially with people still alive that serve as examples.

I only heard of residential schools last year when a fellow beyonder told me about them and only in the last day looked into what actually went on.

I'm kind of ashamed as a Canadian to think that we let the shit go on in residential schools for as long as they did.

Successive Gov't have glossed over this and ignored that this happened until recently. We really have made many of them into what they are today. So governments do the only thing they know to do - throwing money at the problem until it hopefully goes away.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by hampstor


I only heard of residential schools last year when a fellow beyonder told me about them and only in the last day looked into what actually went on.

I'm kind of ashamed as a Canadian to think that we let the shit go on in residential schools for as long as they did.

Successive Gov't have glossed over this and ignored that this happened until recently. We really have made many of them into what they are today. So governments do the only thing they know to do - throwing money at the problem until it hopefully goes away.

Yeah, but realistically, what else can gov't do? Go and give every single native a hug? As of April 15, 2010, $1.55 billion had been paid, representing 75,800 cases.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2008/05/16/f-faqs-residential-schools.html

[hampstor]

Originally posted by codetrap


Yeah, but realistically, what else can gov't do? Go and give every single native a hug? As of April 15, 2010, $1.55 billion had been paid, representing 75,800 cases.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2008/05/16/f-faqs-residential-schools.html

There was a generation that got fucked up by Canada and the church (no surprise that the church was involved). A lot of them never learned how to becoming a part of society (their own culture and within western culture) but had kids. It's like the blind leading the blind.

Giving them a trillion won't fix the root cause is the point i'm getting at. No one knows what to do other than give them money - however that's like giving an addict what he is addicted to. It's a really fucked up situation.

[jutes]

Originally posted by hampstor
No one knows what to do other than give them money -

Simple solution - cut them off from everything. Tell them to blend into Canadian society or STFU. Reserves have transformed into squalors and dumps with the people turning into alcoholics. They have received a free ride from the government for far too long. Why do they get special treatment, because "we were here first"? :rolleyes:

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by jutes


Simple solution - cut them off from everything. Tell them to blend into Canadian society or STFU. Reserves have transformed into squalors and dumps with the people turning into alcoholics. They have received a free ride from the government for far too long. Why do they get special treatment, because "we were here first"? :rolleyes:

Basically, yes. When the white man showed up he made a deal with them - we can stay and rape your natural resources and in exchange we'll give you some money for beer. If you want to cut them off from their money, then they have every right to ask us to go back to Europe.

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by jutes


Simple solution - cut them off from everything. Tell them to blend into Canadian society or STFU. Reserves have transformed into squalors and dumps with the people turning into alcoholics. They have received a free ride from the government for far too long. Why do they get special treatment, because "we were here first"? :rolleyes:


:clap: :clap: :clap:

I am sure a majority of Canadians, if they had the chance to vote, would vote to cut off the natives completely.

Do you know how much it would save the Canadian economy per year without these natives leaching off of us? Do you know how much it would save companies per year operating in Canada if they didn't have to deal with their complete and utter bullshit which would result in higher revenues and more taxes paid to the Canadian government?

I honestly believe it should be put to a vote in Canada whether we should have to keep supporting this useless sloths or if we should cut funding and make them get jobs and figure life out. Why not let Canadians decide on Canada's future like it should be?

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by Type_S1



:clap: :clap: :clap:

I am sure a majority of Canadians, if they had the chance to vote, would vote to cut off the natives completely.

Do you know how much it would save the Canadian economy per year without these natives leaching off of us? Do you know how much it would save companies per year operating in Canada if they didn't have to deal with their complete and utter bullshit which would result in higher revenues and more taxes paid to the Canadian government?

I honestly believe it should be put to a vote in Canada whether we should have to keep supporting this useless sloths or if we should cut funding and make them get jobs and figure life out. Why not let Canadians decide on Canada's future like it should be?

We have treaty obligations that we can't simply back out of. I'm sure if you were to put NAFTA to another vote the majority of Canadians would want to get rid of the agreement too. That doesn't mean you can just go ahead and do it.

The vast majority of Americans fifty years ago would have voted to not allow African-American men to marry white chicks. Does that make it right? The vast majority of people in redneck provinces like Alberta are against gay marriage. Does that mean that it should be okay to just vote it out? No, of course not.

[hampstor]

Originally posted by jutes


Simple solution - cut them off from everything. Tell them to blend into Canadian society or STFU. Reserves have transformed into squalors and dumps with the people turning into alcoholics. They have received a free ride from the government for far too long. Why do they get special treatment, because "we were here first"? :rolleyes:

It's not just the 'we were here first'. It's also the fact that:

1) We abused the shit out of a bunch of them to the point they can't integrate into society (both ours and theirs)
2) They had kids who are fucked up because you have someone abused raising kids. Said kids also have problems integrating into society and have become the 'leaches' we are talking about.
3) We made this mess.

Yes, they're now a leach on society. I hate having to pay for it too and like Quebec, they make me feel like a second class citizen.

I believe that cutting them off will eventually work - but it will likely result in things getting really really bad first. We may have to write off the previous generation and the current generation before things get better.

If we go down that road, we can't take the high and mighty road when it comes to policing the world from oppression anymore. It will turn into a human rights fiasco for Canada.

[Merritt]

Perhaps firms should put up signs saying "we're hiring natives" signs?

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross


We have treaty obligations that we can't simply back out of. I'm sure if you were to put NAFTA to another vote the majority of Canadians would want to get rid of the agreement too. That doesn't mean you can just go ahead and do it.

The vast majority of Americans fifty years ago would have voted to not allow African-American men to marry white chicks. Does that make it right? The vast majority of people in redneck provinces like Alberta are against gay marriage. Does that mean that it should be okay to just vote it out? No, of course not.


OOOHHH right...the genius 180 LSAT electrician.

Actually the government can really do whatever the hell it wants to. There are outs to recognizing natives as a separate person under the law as well...we just need parliament to vote on it...which if most Canadians supported it could be done. Nobody has the balls to do anything about it yet but assisting natives will be one of the downfalls of Canada as a whole when we end up with debt like America.

Your using completing irrelevant topics to support your ideas as well...great lawyer you will be :thumbsup:

Also when you end up going to Harvard you should realize that a government is run for the people of Canada...if the majority of Canada wants something done...it is the governments job to get it done.

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by Type_S1



OOOHHH right...the genius 180 LSAT electrician.

Actually the government can really do whatever the hell it wants to. There are outs to recognizing natives as a separate person under the law as well...we just need parliament to vote on it...which if most Canadians supported it could be done. Nobody has the balls to do anything about it yet but assisting natives will be one of the downfalls of Canada as a whole when we end up with debt like America.

Your using completing irrelevant topics to support your ideas as well...great lawyer you will be :thumbsup:

Also when you end up going to Harvard you should realize that a government is run for the people of Canada...if the majority of Canada wants something done...it is the governments job to get it done.

Actually the government can really do whatever the hell it wants to

Laughable at best bud. Two words: treaty obligations.

[hampstor]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross


Actually the government can really do whatever the hell it wants to

Laughable at best bud. Two words: treaty obligations.

No you're wrong. They can actually do it. Obligations are only as good as the ability to enforce if those obligations are not met.

You're making it sound like the first nations can write an eviction notice that the rest of Canada must abide by.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by hampstor


No you're wrong. They can actually do it. Obligations are only as good as the ability to enforce if those obligations are not met.

You're making it sound like the first nations can write an eviction notice that the rest of Canada must abide by.

No, but they can take the government to court and they'll win for sure. The government is not above the law.

[Merritt]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross


No, but they can take the government to court and they'll win for sure. The government is not above the law.

The government isn't above the law?

That's news to me.

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by Merritt


The government isn't above the law?

That's news to me.

I would suggest you do a bit of reading. What would happen if the government passed a law that made moving from one province to another for work illegal? The law would be struck down by a court as unconstitutional. Hence, the government is not above the law.

[hampstor]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross


No, but they can take the government to court and they'll win for sure. The government is not above the law.

Good point - I probably should've thought through what I said first.

That still doesn't change the fact that they can't write us an eviction letter to GTFO of Canada.

Now time to get back on topic: what to do about Attawapiskat

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by hampstor


Good point - I probably should've thought through what I said first.

That still doesn't change the fact that they can't write us an eviction letter to GTFO of Canada.

No, but they can get millions in damages from the government for cutting them off financially and violating the terms of the treaties. This is why the government wouldn't back out of any said treaties.

[Ryan Shawcross]

Let's build some houses there. Seems pretty simple to me.

[jutes]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross
Let's build some houses there. Seems pretty simple to me.

We give them enough money, let them build their own houses. Oh wait, they'd rather have new trucks and sleds every year instead of living in modern housing.

[Ryan Shawcross]

How many new trucks do you think are on this particular reserve?

[cancer man]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross
Let's build some houses there. Seems pretty simple to me.

I think that's a great idea and even better have them build their own so they might have some respect for them.Habbitat for the reservation.

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by cancer man


I think that's a great idea and even better have them build their own so they might have some respect for them.Habbitat for the reservation.

How much respect do we show for our habitat? What do you think they think of government sanctioned environmental disasters like the oilsands developments around Fort McMurray?

[5.0]

Originally posted by cancer man


I think that's a great idea and even better have them build their own so they might have some respect for them.Habbitat for the reservation.


Sounds ideal to me! :thumbsup:

Obviously the money needs to be managed at a much stricter level. I do not agree with cutting them off because this is a mess that we ourselves have ultimately allowed to happen. I do not know much about how the funding is controlled but I get the feeling that even though there are audits in place that the natives have found many loop holes to work around, just as they are doing now to get the UN involved rather then allow and investigation to pin point the problem and fix it.

Although we know it is not in the interest of reserves, nations, natives.. whatever, our gorvernment needs to take a much larger role in making sure these reserves are being run properly and that the money is being spent on what is needed.

[hampstor]

Originally posted by cancer man


I think that's a great idea and even better have them build their own so they might have some respect for them.Habbitat for the reservation.

:werd:

Teach them how to build a home, and then have them build it. Give them something to be proud of rather than spoon feeding them.

It looks like we're giving them 22 modular homes. Hopefully it's not just a no-strings-attached knee-jerk reaction and something constructive.

[5.0]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross

government sanctioned environmental disasters

Haha nice!

Although I am not sure exactly what you are talking about, there are risks involved in any type of manufacturing. Not to mention those oil sands are probably funding that $90 mil.. Along with keeping the rest of the country afloat.

[jutes]

Originally posted by 5.0
our gorvernment needs to take a much larger role in making sure these reserves are being run properly

Why? Do we really need to babysit these people, hold their hand, make sure they eat their vegetables? It's time for them to 'man the fuck up' so to say and get with the rest of modern Canada. We give them money, free education, more money and pretty much every other break your average tax-paying Canadian would only dream of. What do they do with this? They abuse alcohol, live in shit housing on reserves that look like landfills, buy useless toys...list goes on. THEN, they have the audacity to complain when we don't give them what they WANT. Enough is enough, we have spoon fed their lazy asses for far too long.

Fuck, my parents came to Canada with NOTHING and worked their buts off for an above-average life and income. It pisses me off that my money is going towards this leeching cesspool they call a 'native community'.

[r3ccOs]

Originally posted by jutes


Why? Do we really need to babysit these people, hold their hand, make sure they eat their vegetables? It's time for them to 'man the fuck up' so to say and get with the rest of modern Canada. We give them money, free education, more money and pretty much every other break your average tax-paying Canadian would only dream of. What do they do with this? They abuse alcohol, live in shit housing on reserves that look like landfills, buy useless toys...list goes on. THEN, they have the audacity to complain when we don't give them what they WANT. Enough is enough, we have spoon fed their lazy asses for far too long.

Fuck, my parents came to Canada with NOTHING and worked their buts off for an above-average life and income. It pisses me off that my money is going towards this leeching cesspool they call a 'native community'.

don't want to sound like a prick, but a number of reserves around where I grew up in Manitoba are pushing now onwards to 3rd generation FAS band members.

I'm not sure there is any recovery for a few reservers, where a right of passage to manhood is serving hard time in prison.

Did "we", you or I do this? No, I just think we stepped in too early into their social evoluation and they never were able to cope.

Oh & those at the top of the totem pole, pardon the pun, are just criminals living a life of entitlement, as that's what they belive they should deserve.

[cancer man]

Originally posted by jutes


Why? Do we really need to babysit these people, hold their hand, make sure they eat their vegetables? It's time for them to 'man the fuck up' so to say and get with the rest of modern Canada. We give them money, free education, more money and pretty much every other break your average tax-paying Canadian would only dream of. What do they do with this? They abuse alcohol, live in shit housing on reserves that look like landfills, buy useless toys...list goes on. THEN, they have the audacity to complain when we don't give them what they WANT. Enough is enough, we have spoon fed their lazy asses for far too long.

Fuck, my parents came to Canada with NOTHING and worked their buts off for an above-average life and income. It pisses me off that my money is going towards this leeching cesspool they call a 'native community'.


i'am just going to sit back because this situation will never go away.We are a moral people that's why we have the food bank and the mustard seed and the housing for the poor etc.
We have a different type reservation.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p175/dogman8018/Picture232.jpg

And my damn italian leather shoes are killing my feet.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Ryan Shawcross]

Who said I was anti oil sands?

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Ryan Shawcross]

I'm very much pro-oilsands, thank you very much. I do, however, feel that they can be developed in a much more environmentally responsible manner.

[jutes]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross
I'm very much pro-oilsands, thank you very much. I do, however, feel that they can be developed in a much more environmentally responsible manner.

I feel we, as a human species, can accomplish much, much more if religion was abolished. Then I get back down to reality, you don't get what you want.

[Ryan Shawcross]

I don't agree. I think that in order for capitalism to succeed, some people must be willing to work for less money than others. That doesn't mean that I'm all for slavery.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross
I'm very much pro-oilsands, thank you very much. I do, however, feel that they can be developed in a much more environmentally responsible manner.

You clearly don't know too much about the oil and gas industry in Alberta. The procedures in place and the requirements for reclamation and abandonment are pretty strict. It isn't just a matter of throwing up a mine over the course over a year or sticking a hole in the ground. There are years and sometimes decades of prep before the first drop of oil or the first bucket leaves the ground.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by FraserB


You clearly don't know too much about the oil and gas industry in Alberta. The procedures in place and the requirements for reclamation and abandonment are pretty strict. It isn't just a matter of throwing up a mine over the course over a year or sticking a hole in the ground. There are years and sometimes decades of prep before the first drop of oil or the first bucket leaves the ground.

I've worked there on and off since 2002, so I'd say I'm pretty darn familiary with what goes on and more specifically, the lack of government regulation when it comes to protecting the environment. Take a drive north on 63 past town and tell me if you would want your children living under those clouds.

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


How so? The oilsands are one of the most heavily regulated mining operations in the world when it comes to environmental standards. Many facilities are not just shrinking the tailings pond sizes, but moving closer to completely zero tailings pond operations (Suncor for instance is very close). More than you can say about any other mining operation anywhere, most mines have massive tailings ponds that are a much bigger problem with very little containment and no bird deterrents.

How about SAGD facilities? One of the most environmentally friendly ways ever conceived to mine. Minimal work done on the surface aside from the facility and no shafts which could cause collapses later on. The use of Brackish water, rainwater and now air driven systems is even reducing water demands... hell Grizzly is building a facility which turns off the lights at night and the entire facility is rigged up with rain barrels. Show me another industry with that kind of environmental responsibility taken into consideration.

Also the standards for containment, water usage and emissions are way tighter, I know this because I've done jobs for other types of mining operations and I was border line appalled at how little they do to prevent and mitigate possible environmental threats.

The amount of time I spent considering how to contain leaks and avoid damage to the environment in my job is insane... although the world only seems to care about the propaganda.

Propoganda? I worked at Suncor for years for various electrical contractors. Total lack of government regulation, Suncor is far and away the worst out of all the plants, and I've worked at them all - Syncrude, Albian, CNRL, Opti-Nexen, Scotford, you name it. Go down to the massive piles of coke dust next to plant 50 and 52 and tell me that that stuff isn't getting into the Athabasca River, which is less than one hundred yards away.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[FraserB]

Current SAGD facilities are about 96% efficient and that will be changing in the next few years. The use of process heat instead of electrical heat and the storage and reuse of brackish water. We know how to build a facility, now we spend hundreds of thousands of engineering hours on how to make them efficient and minimize their impact. Layering the site with gravel and then placing the plant machinery on that so there is minimal soil disruption is another example. When the time comes, you just take the machinery away and remove the gravel, no digging down to remove piles.

Companies have entire departments responsible for abandonment, which is probably the most time intensive and costly part of the process.

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


I was involved in most of plant 52, in fact I did the oily water containment system for it actually. That entire area is paved and drained to avoid contamination to the surrounding environment. Most other types of mining operations don't do that, they put a berm up and call it a day; you get massive ground contamination when you do that.

There are also concrete settling ponds further down from the coker where it discharges, they follow strict containment regulations there as well.

I am aware of the coke pit and haul road where the dust tracks heavily, I don't think it is getting into the river though.

Just in case anybody is wondering: this is the area he is talking about
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb256/Sugarphreak/Public%20Albums/Beyond/COKERHAULROAD.jpg

You don't think it gets into the river? Have you ever actually been on site? Do you have any idea how fine that stuff is and how easily it kicks up? A slight breeze makes it blow two hundred yards or more, trust me, I spent years on the top of plant 52 wearing a half face mask.

Do you really believe that the surrounding area avoids contamination? If you do, I feel sorry for you. The stats don't lie man, there are so many more cancer cases downstream of that plant, the numbers just don't add up if there is indeed "no contamination".

Look, I'm aware of the economic reality of the oilsands, I think you'd agree that it is a necessary evil to keep the country ticking financially. Just don't kid yourself, bud. That stuff could be extracted in a far more environmentally responsible manner and you know it. Anything to to with U-1, hell the whole site should be razed and a new one built. Any tradesman who has worked there will tell you the same. There's a reason none of my work buddies or I own Suncor stock. Matter of time before that place blows up due to lack of regulations.

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by FraserB
Current SAGD facilities are about 96% efficient and that will be changing in the next few years. The use of process heat instead of electrical heat and the storage and reuse of brackish water. We know how to build a facility, now we spend hundreds of thousands of engineering hours on how to make them efficient and minimize their impact. Layering the site with gravel and then placing the plant machinery on that so there is minimal soil disruption is another example. When the time comes, you just take the machinery away and remove the gravel, no digging down to remove piles.

Companies have entire departments responsible for abandonment, which is probably the most time intensive and costly part of the process.

I agree, SAGD is a much more environmentally friendly way of doing things but tell me how that's working out for Opti-Nexen. Do you hold any shares yourself? Didn't think so.

Ultimately, those plants need to exist - I get that, and I'm not one of those crazy hippies who wants us all to live in trees. I just feel that were the government to take a more active role in regulation and monitoring, it wouldn't be such a black eye for Canada around the world and it might actually help the environment that we'll leave behind us one day.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


If that was true the road beside it would be black as well, you know how fast that material tracks and it would be showing up. To me, it clearly is not.

Also keep in mind that this coke pit has been around since the early 70's, I'd expect in the future the millennium phase will do more to mitigate it.

I've also been involved in demolition projects on the U1 phase (the old sulpher plant, ect) it is being razed and removed/replaced slowly.

Have you ever actually been on site? I don't think you have, because

a) those coke dust piles are usually about fifty yards above the ground, and

b) those roads are usually black as the night. I have thrown out many many pairs of workboots destroyed by coke dust. If you could see what that stuff does to leather boots, you'd wonder what it does to people's lungs.

[AndyL]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross
Any tradesman who has worked there will tell you the same.

No, you're speaking for only yourself...

Want me to dig out my stack of tags? I bet mines bigger :rofl:

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by AndyL


No, you're speaking for only yourself...

Want me to dig out my stack of tags? I bet mines bigger :rofl:

Where else have you worked that is dirtier than Suncor? I've worked at them all, and if Suncor is a ten out of ten for pollution, I'd rate any of the others no higher than two out of ten.

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Really?

You're the one who is trying to mount a serious argument that none of that coke dust ends up in the major river that is about fifty feet from it IN YOUR OWN PICTURE. Have you ever gone down to plant 52 and looked down from the top at all the dust flying everywhere? If you have, then you wouldn't be making such a foolish argument.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
:rolleyes:

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb256/Sugarphreak/Public%20Albums/Beyond/card.jpg

My my, I must say that you have quite bland features. Again, are you seriously trying to tell me that none of that coke dust gets into the Athabasca River?

[Sugarphreak]

....

[Ryan Shawcross]

Well, I'll remove myself from the conversation then. Good luck to you.

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Pretty much

Besides this material is considered nontoxic.

Is product listed as Carcinogen or Potential Carcinogen by:
NTP? No
IARC? No
OSHA? No

That's exactly what I'm talking about - lack of governmental organization regulation.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Considering most of the petroleum product is removed through extensive processes, this stuff is basically black dust/sand.

Sand? You really believe that? Quite frankly, as someone who you know has worked there due to my accurate description of the place before you posted any pictures, I'm insulted.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Ryan Shawcross]

Cleaning the soil? For real? I'm not going to read any more of your posts on the matter, tell yourself whatever you want, but don't try to feed that bull to me.