"Peace officer" brutality.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Had a late night tuesday night, and got stuck taking the last bus out of downtown.

It happens once every few years... and there's always some weird shit going down on the "last bus"

This time around, there's some guy laying down passed out in the front seats. Bus driver shakes him several times to wake him, fails, and radios it in.

Passengers grumble and make jokes while we wait.

10 minutes later two peace officers show up. I hear "Hey buddy", and see the officers reach down and do something to the guy and he starts screaming and struggling. Couldn't see exactly what they did, but looked like some kind of pain compliance move. Screams go on for about 10 seconds, and then suddenly stop. They lift him up and drag him out.


Fucking assholes went right from "0" to "10". There was no threat, and there was no provocation, and really, there wasn't much urgency.

I'd much rather have waited through a minute of vigorous shaking then hearing some poor fuck screaming in pain at the front of my bus.

Wished I'd had a brain to get it on video. I don't know how this *cannot* be assault.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow
Had a late night tuesday night, and got stuck taking the last bus out of downtown.

It happens once every few years... and there's always some weird shit going down on the "last bus"

This time around, there's some guy laying down passed out in the front seats. Bus driver shakes him several times to wake him, fails, and radios it in.

Passengers grumble and make jokes while we wait.

10 minutes later two peace officers show up. I hear "Hey buddy", and see the officers reach down and do something to the guy and he starts screaming and struggling. Couldn't see exactly what they did, but looked like some kind of pain compliance move. Screams go on for about 10 seconds, and then suddenly stop. They lift him up and drag him out.


Fucking assholes went right from "0" to "10". There was no threat, and there was no provocation, and really, there wasn't much urgency.

I'd much rather have waited through a minute of vigorous shaking then hearing some poor fuck screaming in pain at the front of my bus.

Wished I'd had a brain to get it on video. I don't know how this *cannot* be assault.

So, you can't see what they did, yet you jump to conclusions.

You are the problem with today's society.

[schocker]

Also, many of the people peace officers deal with are usuals so they probably deal with the same people often and get tired of their shit....

[Shlade]

As much force as is reasonably necessary.

Pain compliance such as a pressure point is totally justified.

And assault? Please. Educate yourself a little.

[btimbit]

Maybe next time he'll get the fuck up and move when asked?

I'd say their methods were pretty effective.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by spikers

So, you can't see what they did, yet you jump to conclusions.


Next time I will be sure to find out of it was a wrist lock, or kneeling on his nuts.




Originally posted by spikers

You are the problem with today's society.

If today's society requires unnecessary escalation to get the job done, then call me a problem!

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by btimbit
Maybe next time he'll get the fuck up and move when asked?

I'd say their methods were pretty effective.


Gradual escalation would also have been effective.

But perhaps less satisfying.

[03ozwhip]

Lol at the title, brutality pfftt

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow
If today's society requires unnecessary escalation to get the job done, then call me a problem!

You're the problem.

You said you couldn't see what the officers did, so how exactly do you know it was "unnecessary escalation"?

I see no issue here. Dummy was passed out on the bus, why would the officers bother shaking him awake when you said the driver already tried that "several times" with no success?

Here's a tip, don't pass out on a bus, problem solved.

[Modelexis]

You should have had your cell out recording the interaction, society needs to get in the habit of documenting authority interactions to keep everyone accountable.


Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
Here's a tip, don't pass out on a bus, problem solved.

I like how you blame the OP for not knowing the whole story and then you go on to cast judgement without knowing the whole story.
What if he had a medical condition such as diabetes that caused him to pass out from low blood sugar?

I'm not defending the guy passed out on the bus but I'm just saying we don't really know the whole story, especially without video.

[Asian_defender]

I don't see what the problem is here. They came in and removed the individual in a quick and effective manner. People will always bitch at how authorities deal with these types of situations. If they took 15 mins to remove him "peacefully" then someones going to bitch about how they took too long. If they do it effectively then again people bitch about unnecessary force.
Let's call a spade a spade. If the driver calls it in, he probably doesn't want him on his bus.

[Benny]

The officer was likely invoking slightly painful stimuli to attain a reaction from a person who was drunk/high. It's what they're trained to do. It happens.

Do some further investigation before you start throwing around words like, "Assault" and "Brutality" when you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

[120Comm]

Some people need to be educated about what "assault" and "brutality" is.

In the same vein as the old "do you want me to stop or do you want me to slow down?" joke.

[Kloubek]

Yeah, gotta agree with the rest. It's forceful, but if you don't want people to treat you like crap you better not be crap.

And if you're passed out on a bus to the point of not even responding, you're either a young guy being an idiot - to which you need a lesson, or an adult being an idiot and more than likely ARE crap too, in which case he needs a lesson as well.

Now, if the story was they started beating on him with batons for no reason - then that's the kind of shit you get on video.

And Modelexis - believe me - the cops are very well aware of the proliferation of social media and technology. They are very much accountable.

[Rat Fink]

.

[LadyLuck]

Originally posted by Kloubek

And Modelexis - believe me - the cops are very well aware of the proliferation of social media and technology. They are very much accountable.

hard to convince a guy who clearly believes he lives in a police state...

[frizzlefry]

There was some guy trying to break into cars by my building once, he was high as a kite. People phoned the cops so he started to get the inclination to leave the scene. I distracted him, told him to draw some of the shit he was seeing into a patch of dirt on the ground. He decided to stay and peacefully draw.

The police showed up and pulled some tasers, got the cuffs ready and generally got ready to fight. I said "He has not been violent" and they said "yeah but we don't know what he's on". They approached him and, without touching him, identified themselves as police.

Dude fucking lost his shit. They had to forcefully restrain him.

You can't just say "I never saw what happened but police brutality" without actually seeing it. The police force people into custody all the time, its commonplace. Just because a person does not want to go into custody and screams about it does not make it abuse.

[Modelexis]

I don't think we live in a police state relatively speaking, but I'm also aware of the need to be conscious of the fact that things can go that direction if people allow it to.

Canada is not immune to corruption and power abuse.
I don't think it's wise to rely solely on things like ASIRT to hold police responsible for their actions and curb abuse. It's been shown in the past that ASIRT is not immune to corruption and power abuse themselves.

[revelations]

I can tell you from experience that some people will cry and scream the moment they are touched by someone in uniform....and then submit a formal complaint for a routine arrest.

[DEATH2000]

Originally posted by Benny
The officer was likely invoking slightly painful stimuli to attain a reaction from a person who was drunk/high. It's what they're trained to do. It happens.


Bingo. The most common technique used by Cops and Paramedics is called the "sternum rub". Its used to determine if a person is unconsious or not. Its so effective its taught to EMS students all over. You will feel it, and you will probably wake up with a "mother fucker what the fuck is that" look on your face. Its used because it works.

Something like that was used because the PO's arent going to stand around going "hey, wake up" for 10 mins while theirs a bus full of people waiting around to get home. Their going to determine quickly if he needs immediate medical attention (and if you dont wake up from a sternum rub odds are you do), then remove him from the bus so it can be on its merry way.

OP, you only claim they "assaulted" him when they woke him up. You make no mention of him screaming or fighting when they took him off the bus. This leads me to believe that they werent hurting him during his removal, only when waking him up.

[Mista Bob]

Originally posted by revelations
I can tell you from experience that some people will cry and scream the moment they are touched by someone in uniform....and then submit a formal complaint for a routine arrest.

This.
People will scream in agony over nothing all just to make a big show and try to make the person apprehending them look like a big meanie.
Can't honestly expect much when dealing with a person on the same mental level as a small child.

And they will continue to do this as it clearly gets people on their side, as displayed by this topic. :rofl:

[Enhance]

Originally posted by DEATH2000

Bingo. The most common technique used by Cops and Paramedics is called the "sternum rub". Its used to determine if a person is unconsious or not. Its so effective its taught to EMS students all over. You will feel it, and you will probably wake up with a "mother fucker what the fuck is that" look on your face. Its used because it works.

Something like that was used because the PO's arent going to stand around going "hey, wake up" for 10 mins while theirs a bus full of people waiting around to get home. Their going to determine quickly if he needs immediate medical attention (and if you dont wake up from a sternum rub odds are you do), then remove him from the bus so it can be on its merry way.

OP, you only claim they "assaulted" him when they woke him up. You make no mention of him screaming or fighting when they took him off the bus. This leads me to believe that they werent hurting him during his removal, only when waking him up.

I was going to post this if someone hadn't already. It's called a sternum rub and it hurts like a fucking bitch. Doctors/nurses do it in the hospital all the time when patients are unresponsive for no apparent reason. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_stimulus)

Done with enough pressure, it hurts bad enough that a lot of people wake up swinging fists in self defence.

[Shlade]

Yup^^

I've had to use the "sternum rub" on a totally unresponsive guy hammered out of his mind one time who barely had a pulse.

Turns out it's the best method to wake up somebody when their out cold lol

[Seth1968]

So no one knows what actually happened, but the judgement is fast and furious?

I love Beyond:)

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Shlade
Yup^^

I've had to use the "sternum rub" on a totally unresponsive guy hammered out of his mind one time who barely had a pulse.

Turns out it's the best method to wake up somebody when their out cold lol Makes sense, we used to do it to friends who passed out early at a party, didn't know it was a trained technique :rofl:

What's great about it is that it's enough to wake up someone who's passed out, but doesn't cause any permanent damage to someone who might be passed out for a different reason besides being drunk or stoned that's out of their control.

[stillworking]

From what I've heard, the applying pressure the the thumbnail is a popular technique. Basically digging the end of of a lighter or something into the thumbnail. Get's anybody's attention.

Good Evening sir...We are from the Calgary Transit Concierge department. We are here to give you a wake up call... Here is a warm towel and bottle of water to help you wake up. We do apologize but this bus has to get back on schedule. Are we able to drive you somewhere??

:whocares:

[FraserB]

Wonderful, another troll.:rolleyes:

[lilmira]

May be he is a soccer player?

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by lilmira
May be he is a soccer player?
IQojgdfUAe0

[lil*tymer]

For everyone saying the subject in question deserved to be taught a lesson for passing out on a bus has serious issues. Passing out is a none violent act and I'm sure everyone has passed out before after a night of drinking. better on a bus than behind the wheel of his vehicle.

Peace officers are more violent than police. The screening process is much less thorough and all the meatheads that can't be police abuse their power as peace officers. I won't comment on this incident because I don't know the full details and he probably was over reacting initially with the screaming. But come on it didn't sound like he was violent. Cops don't walk around using pain compliance tecniques on every homeless person sleeping on private property.

[Benny]

Originally posted by lil*tymer
Cops don't walk around using pain compliance tecniques on every homeless person sleeping on private property.


A. It's not a pain compliance technique. It's a small amount of temporary painful stimuli to garner a response.

B. Cops do this to every single homeless person they find sleeping on private property, if they don't first wake up to verbal stimuli. Furthermore, I do it to every single unresponsive patient I encounter. Your 90 year old grandmother isn't waking up and you call an ambulance? I'll likely end up using a sternal rub to assess her level of responsiveness.

C. You, much like the OP, have no idea what you're talking about and jumped on the 'brutality' bandwagon pretty quickly.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by lil*tymer
For everyone saying the subject in question deserved to be taught a lesson for passing out on a bus has serious issues.

Reading comprehension not a strong suit hey?

People aren't saying the guy deserved it, they're saying the officers most likely used an extremely common tactic to wake an unresponsive individual, an action that to every reasonable person who doesn't have some obvious bias like yourself, was well within the bounds of reasonable behaviour on the part of the officers.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by lil*tymer
Peace officers are more violent than police. The screening process is much less thorough and all the meatheads that can't be police abuse their power as peace officers.

Please explain why half of my department is ex-police then. Must be because we're all meatheads...

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


Please explain why half of my department is ex-police then. Must be because we're all meatheads...

:rofl:

You just contradicted yourself on many levels.

[D. Dub]

Originally posted by spikers


So, you can't see what they did, yet you jump to conclusions.

You are the problem with today's society.


Yup. This.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by Shlade
Yup^^

I've had to use the "sternum rub" on a totally unresponsive guy hammered out of his mind one time who barely had a pulse.

Turns out it's the best method to wake up somebody when their out cold lol

As mentioned in the OP, the exact manoever used wasn't clear. They were between him and the passengers, with the backs to us, shielding their actions from our view.

It is telling that some choose to interpret this as "The OP admits he didn't see anything".

It was clear they were doing something to him. From his reaction, it was causing his pain. This wasn't indignant "HEY MAN!" manufactured drama, it was the howl of a human in pain.

If this simply to establish wakefulness, they should have stepped back as soon as he started screaming.

His screams persisted for about 10 seconds, and suddenly subsided when they stood back and stood him up.

This was not faked drama, this was pain applied, and then pain removed.

It was an act of domination to ensure submission.

[D. Dub]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow

It was an act of domination to ensure submission.


Which at times, is exactly what their job calls for :dunno:

[TomcoPDR]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow


If this simply to establish wakefulness, they should have stepped back as soon as he started screaming.



Step back to be in your opponent 2-3 feet zone?

Hope you've never had combat/ martial arts training to be saying this.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow
Blah blah blah, my world is filled with gummy bears, cotton candy and pixie dust, it's impossible for me to understand that beyond my rose coloured glasses is a world where people have to deal with a reality that's not as sparkly and pristine as I would like.

There. Fixed.

Officers employed a technique (one that proved effective), whatever discomfort the individual received was temporary, what exactly is the issue? Should the officers have sat down and read him a bedtime story while rubbing his back and whispering sweet nothings in his ears?

[xbr50]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow

10 minutes later two peace officers show up. I hear "Hey buddy", and see the officers reach down and do something to the guy and he starts screaming and struggling. Couldn't see exactly what they did, but looked like some kind of pain compliance move. Screams go on for about 10 seconds, and then suddenly stop.


Fucking assholes went right from "0" to "10". There was no threat, and there was no provocation, and really, there wasn't much urgency.


lol wut?

[Benny]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow
It was an act of domination to ensure submission.

No, it wasn't. It was a couple peace officers waking up some wino and taking him to Alpha House before he could piss himself on the bus. It happens VERY often in this city and is nothing worth getting your panties in a wad about.

Often times you have to apply the aforementioned temporary painful stimuli for extended periods to rouse people who are really gorked. Waking someone from an inebriated/drugged state isn't like flicking a light-switch, it takes some persistence.

You should have probably pulled the pin on this thread when you very clearly stated you didn't see what was going on, yet you insist on jumping to your uneducated conclusions and dragging this mess out.

[TomcoPDR]

^ then again. What if this was op's personal experience?

[revelations]

OP is exactly the reason why some of these people whine and scream so much. If they can get one more stupid person on their side by making a needless scene, the better. After all, EVERY SINGLE cop MUST be a meat head and just wants to kick ass.

Maybe in the land of rainbows and unicorns the OP can find solice? :dunno: The reality of police work delves into areas of humanity most can never even imagine and most will never see for themselves. Thats not to say that blatent brutality is justified - but that people like the subject of complaint on bus - are quite common in police work.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by Benny


Often times you have to apply the aforementioned temporary painful stimuli for extended periods to rouse people who are really gorked. Waking someone from an inebriated/drugged state isn't like flicking a light-switch, it takes some persistence.


It was very clear early in his scream that he was awoken.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by TomcoPDR
^ then again. What if this was op's personal experience?

Goodness knows I've got experience with being drunk in public, although I never woke up with big men inflicting pain on me.

Usually some shaking or "Hey buddy you ok" sufficed.

Even been arrested twice for being drunk. Both the rent-a-cops and cops involved were professional, and processed me without unnecessary violence.

Thankfully, those years are long passed. Sounds like these are dangerous times.


From everyone's responses here, though, it sounds like no one here gets drunk in public. Probably a good thing, from what I've seen.

[Benny]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow


It was very clear early in his scream that he was awoken.


Look, I have a lot of experience with waking up super drunk/drugged people. Consider this first hand evidence from someone who does know what they're talking about, and works with law enforcement officers frequently. When you sternal rub someone who is really drunk it will hurt them. They'll often scream or react suddenly, but they're not fully awake. If you were to stop immediately, all they're going to do is roll over and go back unconscious. I routinely sternal rub people for 10 seconds or longer to assess a full response. Failing that, I try one of the numerous other temporary painful stimuli methods to garner a response. Yes it hurts. It hurts like shit! No it doesn't do any long term damage and it isn't done with malicious intent.

Why do you keep going with this bleeding heart 'brutality' bullshit when law enforcement officers and health care workers have all chimed in and said it sounds perfectly normal and that you have no idea what you're talking about?

[DEATH2000]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow


It was very clear early in his scream that he was awoken.
I bet you $100 that you will scream just like him when I give you a sternum rub.

Until you have done their job on a daily basis why are you critizising? You dont know what they deal with regularily. And as YOU stated, when he stood up the pain stopped. Its WAY easier to make a person stand up on thier own then to have to lift 200lbs of dead weight off a bus.

Maybe you should avoid public transit from now on....

[btimbit]

In the OP's magical fairy world people magically wake up and do what they're asked 100% of the time, regardless of the state they're in.

[Toma]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow


It was very clear early in his scream that he was awoken.

I'm totally with you dude.

The rest of beyond posting here with their dogma that might is right need a taste of their authoritarian medicine.

Fuck em.

I've seen cops use the ' shield from view technique' one to Manny times to pass off what you saw as 'gee, they were just making sure he was responsive.'

[Mista Bob]

Originally posted by Toma



I've seen cops use the ' shield from view technique' one to Manny times to pass off what you saw as 'gee, they were just making sure he was responsive.'

Who's Manny?


You and Robin Goodfellow need to go move to Disney Land, sounds like the perfect fit for you guys.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow
Usually some shaking or "Hey buddy you ok" sufficed.


You said the bus driver tried this without success so he called the officers.

Officers applied temporary discomfort to remedy the situation, seems completely reasonable to anyone with half a brain.

This "fake outrage" some people in our society feel the need to exhibit is infuriating.

What would the OP have liked the officers to do exactly? Explain in detail, I guarantee those Beyond members with actual experience will explain why it wouldn't work or it would be dangerous for the officers, which really only leaves the action the officers employed.

"I'm fake outraged for the sake of being fake outraged" :rolleyes:

[120Comm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_stimulus

The 'victim' was in pain for a shorter period of time than those of us reading this thread.

[horobosu]

Originally posted by 120Comm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_stimulus

The 'victim' was in pain for a shorter period of time than those of us reading this thread.
:werd:

[stillworking]

Originally posted by FraserB
Wonderful, another troll.:rolleyes:
Referring to OP?

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


What would the OP have liked the officers to do exactly?

What a great question. I would have liked them to escalate gradually, yet promptly.

1) Verbal "Hey buddy"
2) Vigorous shake.
3) Sternum rub until away, but not sustained.


(I saw enough to know they weren't doing a sternum rub, however, which requires vigorous motion - It was some other pain compliance move. )

[FraserB]

Originally posted by stillworking

Referring to OP?

Yeah, OP.

Not you.:thumbsup:

[stillworking]

Originally posted by stillworking
From what I've heard, the applying pressure the the thumbnail is a popular technique. Basically digging the end of of a lighter or something into the thumbnail. Get's anybody's attention.

If you would STOP and think about the sternum rub for a second...In order to administer it, the responder has to be right in close to the unconscious person whose hands would be mostly free to react/combat the first responder. Most first responders, especially police have little interest in getting up close and personal with clients if not necessary. The method which I've ALREADY mentioned is much safer as it can be administered from the standing position, with one hand, and off to the side of the unconscious person.

See link to LAFD training material...
http://lafdtraining.org/ists/tb059v0802.pdf

From EMS/FIRE I've talked to in Alberta, the preferred method is to actually dig the end of a blunt object directly into the nail bed. (usually the end of a lighter, but anything that will provide leverage into the unconscious persons nailbed) FFS

[Toma]

Originally posted by Mista Bob


Who's Manny?


You and Robin Goodfellow need to go move to Disney Land, sounds like the perfect fit for you guys.

I'm a pacifist. If you aren't helping someone with compassion and empathy, you should fuck off instead. He wasn't a danger to anyone, there was zero reason too make your cock feel bigger by causing pain to a helpless person.

Small man mentality ruins this world.

And sternum rub? Hahahaha yeah. OK. Lol

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by FraserB


Yeah, OP.

Not you.:thumbsup:

Yeah I agree, another troll. How many posts? Joined Beyond when? My guess it's Toma's 2nd, 3rd, or maybe 12th other account.

[syscal]

Also something to note. you are a peace officer entering into an unknown situation that you are well aware could go either way. You use pain stimuli to attain control until you are certain you have control. You don't just release the screaming drunk/high person to 'see what he'll do' because by the time you find out it's too late. The thing about wrist locks, arm locks, pressure points etc is that the pain is very temporary but effective.

[Toma]

Originally posted by syscal
Also something to note. you are a peace officer entering into an unknown situation that you are well aware could go either way. You use pain stimuli to attain control until you are certain you have control. You don't just release the screaming drunk/high person to 'see what he'll do' because by the time you find out it's too late. The thing about wrist locks, arm locks, pressure points etc is that the pain is very temporary but effective.

Either way?? I dealt with drunks for 12+ years. It NEVER has to go the "escalation" route.

Only small men with small dicks need to do that.

[Mista Bob]

Originally posted by Toma


I'm a pacifist. If you aren't helping someone with compassion and empathy, you should fuck off instead. He wasn't a danger to anyone, there was zero reason too make your cock feel bigger by causing pain to a helpless person.

Small man mentality ruins this world.

And sternum rub? Hahahaha yeah. OK. Lol

So the officers should have assumed he was a peace loving never hurt a fly kinda guy?
Yeah, that's a good way to get yourself seriously injured or killed while on duty. :rofl:

The guy is drunk passed out on a bus FFS, non responsive to previous attempts by the bus driver.
It's already been outlined in this thread numerous times exactly what has occured, but it seems logical thinking is not your strong suit.
That's OK though, you are more than welcome to keep on living in la la land while the rest of us grown ups deal with real life, as you clearly aren't going to do it.

[Toma]

Originally posted by Mista Bob


So the officers should have assumed he was a peace loving never hurt a fly kinda guy?


Yup. If you are a coward, or afraid of shadows, pick another job.

Inflicting pain as a FIRST response is retarded, and more likely to get you in trouble than a little empathy and compassion.

Don't be a ratard. Its common sense.

[rx7_turbo2]

Officers should have hugged him into compliance:rofl:

Nah then the title of the thread would have been "Peace officer" sexual assaults man. When people have an obvious bias against authority of any kind it's not worth arguing with them, rationality has flown right out the window.

Most everyone has had a bad experience with an over zealous officer over their lifetime. Even with those experiences in our mind the vast majority of rational thinking people are able to look at the situation described in this thread and understand the officers actions were well within the bounds of reasonable behaviour. We're talking about an extremely short period of time (10 sec) of temporary discomfort, it's not like officers punched the guy in the dick, poked him in the eyes or sodomized him with a flashlight.

[Mista Bob]

Originally posted by Toma


Yup. If you are a coward, or afraid of shadows, pick another job.

Inflicting pain as a FIRST response is retarded, and more likely to get you in trouble than a little empathy and compassion.

Don't be a ratard. Its common sense.

So, why aren't you signing up to be a police/peace officer?
It's clear you don't agree with the methods they use so why not try and make a difference?
You could finally meet all these really cool chill guys that officers deal with exclusively.

I'm sure you would totally last longer than a month on the job before getting shanked.
Definitely nothing to worry about, perfectly safe job.

[Toma]

Originally posted by Mista Bob


So, why aren't you signing up to be a police/peace officer?
It's clear you don't agree with the methods they use so why not try and make a difference?
You could finally meet all these really cool chill guys that officers deal with exclusively.

I'm sure you would totally last longer than a month on the job before getting shanked.
Definitely nothing to worry about, perfectly safe job.

I work with Persons with Dissabilities. Lots of drug abuse, alcoholism etc.

I deal with what these "peace" officers "were afraid of" constantly.

Pick another job if you can't "hug" your way out of a simple passed out drunk situation. 99.99% are harmless. Period.

If you wan't to eliminate some pretend "risk", travel in packs of 6 "peace" officer thugs, and just shoot everyone as a first response.

[Mista Bob]

So how do I get in this fantasy world you live in? Sounds pretty awesome, with nothing bad ever happening ever.

Is there a secret hand shake to get in? Or do you just have to take a lot of drugs?

[Toma]

Originally posted by Mista Bob
So how do I get in this fantasy world you live in? Sounds pretty awesome, with nothing bad ever happening ever.

Is there a secret hand shake to get in? Or do you just have to take a lot of drugs?

Easy. Compassion and empahty first.

non escalating self defense last (crisis prevention management, non violent crisis intervention)

But that would entail not being a coward, and not being afraid of shadows.

Little dick men can't seem to get there unfortunately. Sorry, showing you the handshake wont help you, obviously.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Toma


Easy. Compassion and empahty first.


Oh, I empathize alright, I empathize with all the people who have to deal with alcoholics and drug addicts bullshit. I've only saw you refer to what you actually do a couple of times, but now it all makes sense.

Don't be a passed out loser of a drunk on the LRT. Problem solved. Go be a loser elsewhere. I feel zero pity for alcoholics.

[Toma]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Oh, I empathize alright, I empathize with all the people who have to deal with alcoholics and drug addicts bullshit. I've only saw you refer to what you actually do a couple of times, but now it all makes sense.

Don't be a passed out loser of a drunk on the LRT. Problem solved. Go be a loser elsewhere. I feel zero pity for alcoholics.

I do believe on the DSM IV, that means you are well on your way to being a Psychopath.

Cognrats. But that has been apparant much longer than just today.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Oh, I empathize alright, I empathize with all the people who have to deal with alcoholics and drug addicts bullshit. I've only saw you refer to what you actually do a couple of times, but now it all makes sense.

Don't be a passed out loser of a drunk on the LRT. Problem solved. Go be a loser elsewhere. I feel zero pity for alcoholics. I don't think all drug addicts and alcoholics should be beaten on sight, that's extreme, almost everyone would agree.

But that's not what we're talking about anyways. A small amount of short term discomfort was applied to an unresponsive individual on a bus. This achieved alertness, compliance, and ensured the safety of the unresponsive individual, officers, bus driver and other passengers. I fail to see how any rational thinking person doesn't understand how reasonable that action is:dunno:

I've had friends temporarily restrained by officers, everyone one of them I consider a rational, intelligent person, every one of them said something to the effect afterwards of "ya I was being an idiot". They understood that for the welfare of everyone involved certain actions were within reason.

[blairtruck]

all i can tell is Toma cant get little dicks off his mind.

[Mista Bob]

New drinking game in this topic, take a shot every time Toma mentions little dicks.

Just don't pass out on a bus though, k?

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
I don't think all drug addicts and alcoholics should be beaten on sight, that's extreme, almost everyone would agree.

But that's not what we're talking about anyways.

To your first part, nobody said that, so I don't really understand your point? And to the second part, uh, see my first point :nut:

[Mista Bob]

Originally posted by Toma


Easy. Compassion and empahty first.

So, since you are all about empathy.... why are you so incapable of viewing things from the officers perspective?
Sure looks like it's out of complete ignorance to what these people actually go through on a daily basis.

But yeah you are totally right, who gives a fuck about the people risking their lives for others.
Screw those guys, they should act with compassion and care in all situations, even if it needlessly puts their own life at risk.
I'm sure they can just use their mind reading skills to find out who is a big baddie and who's a chill guy.

Yeah, you sure sound compassionate and empathic.
:rolleyes:

[btimbit]

Toma gonna Toma

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


To your first part, nobody said that, so I don't really understand your point? And to the second part, uh, see my first point :nut:

Although I quoted you, that part wasn't directed at you. :poosie:

There seems to be an attitude by the minority in this thread that if you don't have compassion and empathy for this individual then why not just beat them to death for being incapacitated on a bus. My point was that there is a spectrum of behaviour that's acceptable somewhere between hugging them into submission and beating them to death, and that I felt the officers in question chose actions that were more than reasonable given the scenario described.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


Although I quoted you, that part wasn't directed at you. :poosie:

There seems to be an attitude by the minority in this thread that if you don't have compassion and empathy for this individual then why not just beat them to death for being incapacitated on a bus. My point was that there is a spectrum of behaviour that's acceptable somewhere between hugging them into submission and beating them to death, and that I felt the officers in question chose actions that were more than reasonable given the scenario described.

Ma bad. This is completely reasonable and I agree.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Toma


Easy. Compassion and empahty first.

non escalating self defense last (crisis prevention management, non violent crisis intervention)

But that would entail not being a coward, and not being afraid of shadows.

Little dick men can't seem to get there unfortunately. Sorry, showing you the handshake wont help you, obviously.

A family member of mine and her husband work in social services. They deal with most of the drunks people who frequent down town would recognize. She always says that attacking the police, when they deal with one of her clients "harshly", should be tempered with the fact that the police are trained for a certain role. They deal with the worst of people and are faced with violence every day. It is also not lost on her that many of her clients react violently to any sort of police presence which makes it very hard for them to administer the little training they do have for dealing with people who have disabilities or mental health issues.

So I think your constant references to the police being little dick assholes is ignorant and inflammatory and any good social worker knows that you need to work with the police and not insult their penises if you want to improve things. They are the frontline, receive little training compared to a social worker and are often not wanted while being tasked with checking on the welfare of those people who hate them on sight.

That said I am not a fan of pain compliance. One of the reasons I don't like how tasers are often employed (despite their value as a replacement for a gun, which I agree with). But this case seems to be more of a pain response intended to make sure the guy was not dying or dead. He was out cold as the OP said, if they wanted his compliance they could have just dragged him off the bus.

They were most likely checking on his welfare by shocking him awake. And you shit all over them for it.

[takkyu]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


A family member of mine and her husband work in social services. They deal with most of the drunks people who frequent down town would recognize. She always says that attacking the police, when they deal with one of her clients "harshly", should be tempered with the fact that the police are trained for a certain role. They deal with the worst of people and are faced with violence every day. It is also not lost on her that many of her clients react violently to any sort of police presence which makes it very hard for them to administer the little training they do have for dealing with people who have disabilities or mental health issues.

So I think your constant references to the police being little dick assholes is ignorant and inflammatory and any good social worker knows that you need to work with the police and not insult their penises if you want to improve things. They are the frontline, receive little training compared to a social worker and are often not wanted while being tasked with checking on the welfare of those people who hate them on sight.

That said I am not a fan of pain compliance. One of the reasons I don't like how tasers are often employed (despite their value as a replacement for a gun, which I agree with). But this case seems to be more of a pain response intended to make sure the guy was not dying or dead. He was out cold as the OP said, if they wanted his compliance they could have just dragged him off the bus.

They were most likely checking on his welfare by shocking him awake. And you shit all over them for it. :thumbsup:

[Toma]

Pretty easy.... there are great cops, and there are bad cops.

IMO these were bad cops.

A person who lives in fear, will lash out as a first response. People that feel elevated when picking on the helpless ar just scum with small dicks (take a shot) ;)

Automatically giving the cops the "pass" and "all green" for causing screaming pain to a man that was harmless and not a danger to anyone is stupid IMO.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Toma
Pretty easy.... there are great cops, and there are bad cops.

IMO these were bad cops.

A person who lives in fear, will lash out as a first response. People that feel elevated when picking on the helpless ar just scum with small dicks (take a shot) ;)

Automatically giving the cops the "pass" and "all green" for causing screaming pain to a man that was harmless and not a danger to anyone is stupid IMO.

I agree and don't. Yes, there are good cops and bad cops BUT my relation who works in social care says that the vast majority of her "hard cases" who hate the cops are also delivered into her care by the cops.

You may not like them and slam them for having small dicks (not sure if your are out there measuring or whatever) but the fact is that many of the guys who pass out on public transit don't walk into social services asking for help. They are delivered there by the police and forced into follow ups by court order.

She could not help them without the police as social workers don't have the resources to patrol the streets to the extent that cops do.

[95EagleAWD]

Just because they're passed out doesn't meant they're not harmless to anyone.

Maybe they're wanted, in breach of conditions, have warrants, etc. Happens all the time.

[spikerS]

"an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

Yeah, approaching an unknown person that is passed out, without knowing why, is a very dangerous thing to do.

Personally, if the police, EMS, whoever want to go right to a sternum rub or other stimuli to wake someone up and to check if they are ok, meh, whatever.

Guess what, I spank my kids too, and they now suffer from a condition called respect. :rofl:

[95EagleAWD]

We're actually not taught sternum rubs in training, but there's quite a few ways to poke and prod someone to wake them up.

Calgary Transit has it's own training program, AFAIK. They may be taught different things.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD
Just because they're passed out doesn't meant they're not harmless to anyone.

Maybe they're wanted, in breach of conditions, have warrants, etc. Happens all the time.

This exactly.

The officers once on scene are also responsible for the well being of the driver and other passengers. There's a liability issue. If the officers are too relaxed, don't follow proper procedure and training, and the individual in question manages to injure someone else there would be a shit storm of investigations and litigation.

Officers woke an unresponsive individual and achieved his compliance with a single technique, a technique that inflicted some discomfort for a very short period of time, a technique that ensured the safety of the officers, the driver, and all other passengers. Completely reasonable, no batons, no tasers, no guns.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD
We're actually not taught sternum rubs in training, but there's quite a few ways to poke and prod someone to wake them up.

Calgary Transit has it's own training program, AFAIK. They may be taught different things. I guess in Toma's realm the police should just give the publicly intoxicated person a blankie and a pillow and leave them to sleep it off in a puddle of their own vomit/urine on the bus.

[btimbit]

Originally posted by codetrap
I guess in Toma's realm the police should just give the publicly intoxicated person a blankie and a pillow and leave them to sleep it off in a puddle of their own vomit/urine on the bus.

No need, in Toma's realm there are no police or busses, we would all ride our pet unicorns

[120Comm]

Originally posted by codetrap
I guess in Toma's realm the police should just give the publicly intoxicated person a blankie and a pillow and leave them to sleep it off in a puddle of their own vomit/urine on the bus.

Or go up and down the aisle of the bus beforehand, explaining what they're going to do to rouse the guy, so nobody needs to fill out a Hurt Feelings Report (http://dietrolldie.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/hurtfeelingsform.pdf).

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by 120Comm


Or go up and down the aisle of the bus beforehand, explaining what they're going to do to rouse the guy, so nobody needs to fill out a Hurt Feelings Report (http://dietrolldie.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/hurtfeelingsform.pdf).

The old fashioned one said "Women like hormones" now the new pussified PC garbage fucking liberal waste of air version has "Women/Man like hormones" WTF are man hormones in this context?

I got written up for the old one at work once before, not for the report itself, but because it was sexist. Fuck I hate humanity, someone nuke us all.

[faiz999]

im not even a fan of peace officers (sorry 95eagle) but i dont think this is a case of brutality. sounds like they did what they had to (albeit probably painful for the passed out guy) in order to keep things moving.

ive seen and heard worse and i understand that when dealing with unknowns, you have to exercise caution and approach carefully. seems like these guys were just doing their job and unfortunately, the passed out guy got a little scare.

[TurboMedic]

We do this all the time as Paramedics. As pointed out, its called painful stimulus for a reason.......it goes like this A(lert), V(erbal), P(ainful), U(nresponsive). There is no gently rocking awake in there. FWIW, when they can't wake them up, we get called, and do more pain then they do, regularly.....Standard operating procedure, nothing to see here :drama:

[Modelexis]

I think an empathetic person might pick up that statistically it's safe to say the reason people end up drinking themselves into a coma is due to a childhood living under parents that felt it was standard operating procedure to beat and abuse and harass children that were inconvenient to their lives.

The tragedy is when they get older and try to self medicate their pain society treats them as their parents did and reinforces the ethics of their parents and prevents them from seeing the abuses done to them as children.

Whether the rest of society should be punished for the actions of some parents I think is a different topic though.

Now I need a few beyonders to call me a pussy as is standard operating procedure on beyond.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by Modelexis
I think an empathetic person might pick up that statistically it's safe to say the reason people end up drinking themselves into a coma is due to a childhood living under parents that felt it was standard operating procedure to beat and abuse and harass children that were inconvenient to their lives.

I'm sure several other reasons are as statistically viable as that one may be. I don't really see that correlation to the topic, which is the method they used to help this guy regain conciousness.

I'm inclined to think nothing wrong was done here in this particular instance. As said already (at nauseum almost), verbal and "non painful" methods of waking him were taken and failed. What is there left? Painful response. If that doesn't register then they know they are dealing with a significant enough event to get the TurboMedics of the world there.

If that had also failed and they then proceeded to bootfuck and taze him, you'd have something to work with.


:dunno:

[120Comm]

Originally posted by GTS4tw


The old fashioned one said "Women like hormones" now the new pussified PC garbage fucking liberal waste of air version has "Women/Man like hormones" WTF are man hormones in this context?

I got written up for the old one at work once before, not for the report itself, but because it was sexist. Fuck I hate humanity, someone nuke us all.

I just grabbed the first one that came up on a google search. Made sure it had the general appearance right.. didn't check the content.

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by 120Comm


I just grabbed the first one that came up on a google search. Made sure it had the general appearance right.. didn't check the content.

No worries, I just hate that even something making fun of the pussy PC world has become pussified and PC.

[Modelexis]

No doubt inflicting pain is a quick way to gain compliance from someone, lazy parents abuse this method and I would argue that lazy peace officers do as well for the same reason, makes your job a whole lot easier.

Are private bouncers legally allowed to use these tactics of inflicting pain in non-responsive individuals?

When I picture this happening in a club the image I get is of some guy being removed from the club by bouncers, I doubt they would inflict pain and have the guy screaming.

I think if this were a private bus company and the private company had their own 'bus bouncers' and this happened I doubt the outcome would be the same.
A private company would try everything to avoid making a scene, inflicting pain on customers is never a good thing in the free market.

Medics and peace officers have a monopoly on their services so of course they will get away with a lot more brutal actions, they can't be fired or replaced by another agency.

Imagine a video leaked of a greyhound employee inflicting pain on a passenger who was non-responsive, I can imagine what great PR that would be.

[95EagleAWD]

Well then good thing your scenario makes no sense, since theses aren't private bus line employees, but employees through the City of Calgary, trained through the Solicitor General of Alberta.

We're not bouncers. We're law enforcement. Any way you cut it, I don't care. We have powers of arrest, we write tickets, we pull cars over, we suspend licenses, we do all of that and more.

And you're absolutely right it makes my job easier. When the individual is unresponsive to verbal commands, then the next step is hands on. That's just the way it works. A CPS officer would have done the same thing. Myself, when waking up drunks, I usually use a pressure point to the jawline if a soft tap on his (or her) boots doesn't work.

I'm all about making my job easier. I don't need to get into fights where people can get hurt when I can wake a guy up with a thumb in his jaw, then handcuff him and deal with him from a safe situation. When I walk up to anybody, I have no idea who he is, what he's done, where's he's from, what diseases he may or may not have, etc. Why the hell would I take that chance? That's absurd. Last week, I dealt with a guy that said he was HIV positive, and I have to take that seriously. He wouldn't listen to my partner when he told him not to look at him while he was being searched, because my partner didn't want to get spit on. Guess what... down to the ground you go. And I bet more than a few people saw us do that, even though he was already handcuffed. And they would have no idea why it happened, would they?

Do I care when I deal with people who have shitty lives like this? Honestly, yes I do. There is empathy and sympathy from me and I've never hurt someone just for fun. I certainly have hurt someone to get them to do what I need them to do to ensure my own, my partner's, or the public's safety. I take no pleasure in it. And I don't think I'm in the minority. It truly is unfortunate, and I wish we had better programs to help people.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD
Well then good thing your scenario makes no sense, since theses aren't private bus line employees, but employees through the City of Calgary, trained through the Solicitor General of Alberta.

We're not bouncers. We're law enforcement. Any way you cut it, I don't care. We have powers of arrest, we write tickets, we pull cars over, we suspend licenses, we do all of that and more.

You completely missed what I was saying. I know you're not bouncers. The point of bringing in a private bouncer was to illustrate a parallel between the public and private sector to compare tactics to see how necessary it is to inflict pain to gain compliance from non responsive people.

My point was to show that the only reason you get away with these lazy (but effective) tactics is because you are trained and monopolized through the solicitor general of alberta. (largest gang in alberta)
If these methods were so universally good to use for people in authority you would see more security companies and bouncers using these tactics. Maybe private security companies already use these tactics, I don't know, I'm just asking the question.

Couldn't something like smelling salt be used to wake people up without inflicting pain?

[GTS4tw]

I think Modelexis needs to go for a ride along. Im sure they could show you plenty of people to hug, then you could actually go out and help these poor unfortunate drunks, instead of talking out your ass about something you clearly know absolutely zero about.

I wonder how many of these people bitching about the police would go pick someone up who they have never met, while they spit on your face and try to convince you to fight while simultaneously shitting and pissing themselves. Then put that person in their vehicle and take them to get help? None, ever. Right. Then. Shut. The. Fuck. Up.

Edit: Only Modelexis could make an argument so absurd that I would be on the side of the police. I think they have their problems, but damn, who doesn't want drunks dealt with?