F-35 Lightning II Discussion

[jutes]

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We're not defending ourselves with a bunch of expensive fighter planes regardless of the intelligence of the populace.

Among relevant countries, we're #1 by a mile in terms of coastline per capita. We simply don't have the economic output to create a military that has the ability to defend our borders. Never have, never will.

It’s beyond that, we either contribute to NORAD and NATO operations with modern capabilities or we disband our military. Our procurement problem is largely political and there is no public support to have a capable military, Canadians would rather burry their heads in the sand and let the US take care of defence. If they see the Snowbirds fly over every summer they don’t care otherwise. There are more pressing issues in this country anyway, like weed. My pension kicks in at 43, no sense staying in any longer in an organization that’s not properly supported by government.

[Buster]

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It’s beyond that, we either contribute to NORAD and NATO operations with modern capabilities or we disband our military. Our procurement problem is largely political and there is no public support to have a capable military, Canadians would rather burry their heads in the sand and let the US take care of defence. If they see the Snowbirds fly over every summer they don’t care otherwise. There are more pressing issues in this country anyway, like weed. My pension kicks in at 43, no sense staying in any longer in an organization that’s not properly supported by government.

It's better to have some actual capability, than it is to pretend we do.

I don't understand the perspective that we must support NATO/NORAD or disband. Canada may as well do what is within our capability and do it efficiently.

First order of business is to stop putting resources into over-seas capabilities. We want to expend scarce national economic/GDP resources on a bunch of fighter planes to be able to go bomb shit across the globe in order to do some peacekeeping or something? That makes no sense. Canadians have an oddly misplaced and highly self-delusional impression of our role and impact on the world stage. We aren't within an order of magnitude of the capability we need to defend our own borders, and we're worried about a NATO mission in a country halfway around the globe?

No...the real risk to this country is the naivete and economic illiteracy of the Canadian population. I'm far more worried about the presence of the attitudes of people like gestalt and kertejude in this country than I am about Russian bombers coming over the arctic, or bombing somebody in the shit hole that extends from Turkey to India.

[jutes]

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It's better to have some actual capability, than it is to pretend we do.

I don't understand the perspective that we must support NATO/NORAD or disband. Canada may as well do what is within our capability and do it efficiently.

First order of business is to stop putting resources into over-seas capabilities. We want to expend scarce national economic/GDP resources on a bunch of fighter planes to be able to go bomb shit across the globe in order to do some peacekeeping or something? That makes no sense. Canadians have an oddly misplaced and highly self-delusional impression of our role and impact on the world stage. We aren't within an order of magnitude of the capability we need to defend our own borders, and we're worried about a NATO mission in a country halfway around the globe?

No...the real risk to this country is the naivete and economic illiteracy of the Canadian population. I'm far more worried about the presence of the attitudes of people like gestalt and kertejude in this country than I am about Russian bombers coming over the arctic, or bombing somebody in the shit hole that extends from Turkey to India.

Every foreign policy in the last 20 years had some sort of involvement in overseas operations. This won’t change unless something drastic happens like the NDP or Greens get a majority. We will keep going overseas to bomb shit hole countries or “defend” Eastern European nations, regardless of what our personal views are.

[95EagleAWD]

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Every foreign policy in the last 20 years had some sort of involvement in overseas operations. This won’t change unless something drastic happens like the NDP or Greens get a majority. We will keep going overseas to bomb shit hole countries or “defend” Eastern European nations, regardless of what our personal views are.

And I mean, as we should. That's part of the job with NATO.

[Buster]

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Every foreign policy in the last 20 years had some sort of involvement in overseas operations. This won’t change unless something drastic happens like the NDP or Greens get a majority. We will keep going overseas to bomb shit hole countries or “defend” Eastern European nations, regardless of what our personal views are.

Economics don't lie, unfortunately. Canada's ability/inability to conduct missions in far flung parts of the globe is a relatively low priority for the country - whether we realize it or not.

I think we will continue down the same path, it's just not the right decision. Which is my point of course. Same with flying a few F-35s around the NWT pretending we're doing something strategic.

[95EagleAWD]

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I dunno. As I understand it, the F-14 was considered a piece of garbage all along. It's just a missile platform for a 60's era missile. No thanks. The F-16 added capability a ton since the original. But the original was basically considered a toy car by pilots at the time.

F-25, F-22, etc...all aren't even what Canada needs. What are we going to do, stop bombers from coming over the arctic circle? lol

What we should do is invest in a large, and super sophisticated fleet of drones.

I know this got touched on, but by the end of it's service life, the F-14B/D was the most capable interceptor/strike fighter in the fleet. It could carry bombs further than the Hornet/SH, and the fleet defense capability still hasn't been replaced. The AIM-54C was an outrageously capable missile, and it still hasn't really been surpassed.

From what I read, the Tomcat community was offered either LANTIRN capability, or AMRAAM, and they figured that LANTIRN kept them more up to date and relevant to the wars they were fighting.

Tomcat's look pretty rad with AMRAAMs though.

[OTown]

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I spent over a decade on the CF18 but have finally moved on. From my personal experience and opinion it’s about time for a replacement. Spare parts are getting hard to find, reliability is decreasing and the jet itself from a combat perspective is almost not relevant. Pilot recruitment is getting very difficult as well, no kid who grew up in the 2000s wants to fly a 70s tech era jet. In about 2-3 years time there will be a massive shortage of pilots. All the new guys who get their wings go transport, get their hours in a multi and fly for an airliner. Jet pilot flying is horrible on your body, terrible lifestyle on family(you are always gone or on some BS tasking) and you get either cold lake or bagotville to choose from. The newer guys in their late 20s, early 30s are hating it and the older experienced guys are retiring early.

The RCAF fighter world will self-implode on itself if a modern jet (F35) isn’t purchased soon. The Canadian public is inherently stupid and will think the US will protect us, so I don’t see much support for a replacement. Most Canadians don’t even know there is a military in the country or what it does.

Cant say I disagree with anything you said. I have a few buddies who are flying CAF, one of them is flying hercs with the longterm goal of flying commercial after a (hopefully) short career and it seems to be a widespread trend across the CAF. Cant say I blame them - better pay and treated way better on the private side.

[ZenOps]

So. There is a probability that a final assembly F-35 got shot down by China/Russia or simply had a mechanical failure of some sort (think Ford Pinto)

This poses a problem for the 10 carriers that the US currently operates. It really doesn't matter what downed the F-35, so much that it was downed. If you have one Olympic athlete drop on the field due to spontaneous heart attack, what do you do if it happens a second time? I would think that you have to literally give up the field. I would suggest that if another F-35 drops out of the sky, its time to concede Guam and maybe Hawaii - and build up the Mexican border before its too late.

Just my realistic opinion. As for Canada buying said spontaneous heart attack Athletes driving Ford Pintos? You gotta be crazy.

[revelations]

The F-35 has gone from a perceived turkey to a very serious weapons/network/sensor platform in the last year or so.

I also like how it flies around with radar reflectors installed at the factory - to be removed at wartime/combat sim - to avoid revealing its true signature.

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So. There is a probability that a final assembly F-35 got shot down by China/Russia or simply had a mechanical failure of some sort (think Ford Pinto)

This poses a problem for the 10 carriers that the US currently operates. It really doesn't matter what downed the F-35, so much that it was downed. If you have one Olympic athlete drop on the field due to spontaneous heart attack, what do you do if it happens a second time? I would think that you have to literally give up the field. I would suggest that if another F-35 drops out of the sky, its time to concede Guam and maybe Hawaii - and build up the Mexican border before its too late.

Just my realistic opinion. As for Canada buying said spontaneous heart attack Athletes driving Ford Pintos? You gotta be crazy.

WHAAAAT? I thought you said it was downed by a UFO!!! What other explanation is there!!!

[AndyL]

Really? miles off a Japanese coastal airbase you think china or russia shot him down?

Versus the very typical disorientation flying in imc... Which for a high time military pilot is rare but still happens.

[e31]

The F-22 to F-15 Kill ratio was advertised as being ridiculously one sided. I wonder if the same can be said if one were to compare F-35 vs CF-18.

Hypothetical scenario: Alberta steps in to buy 20 F-35's (when Fed gov't cancels their order); that is opposed to 79 airworthy CF-18's for Canada.

Within the first few minutes of conflict Alberta jets achieve air superiority across the western provinces, easily drawing down Federal operations in Comox, Cold Lake & Moose Jaw.

[killramos]

I’m all for discussing separation. But to imply Alberta is going to win a shooting war with RoC (rest of Canada) with a handful of jets, now that’s hilarious.

[revelations]

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The F-22 to F-15 Kill ratio was advertised as being ridiculously one sided. I wonder if the same can be said if one were to compare F-35 vs CF-18.

Hypothetical scenario: Alberta steps in to buy 20 F-35's (when Fed gov't cancels their order); that is opposed to 79 airworthy CF-18's for Canada.

Within the first few minutes of conflict Alberta jets achieve air superiority across the western provinces, easily drawing down Federal operations in Comox, Cold Lake & Moose Jaw.

You cant really compare the F15 to the F22 - one is a proverbial 'truck' intended to carry bags (fuel) and ordinance to the middle of the battle field after the enemy surface to air defenses have been dealt with - and the other forms part of the 'passive' team of non-EM emitting, aircraft that deals with SEAD.

So if you're talking about BVR engagements, the F15 will lose out every-time to the F22.

Also, i believe the acquisition costs approach a good percentage of our budget - I guess well just drop AHS completely?

[e31]

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You cant really compare the F15 to the F22

Thanks for your input...here's a pilot (of both aircraft) who disagrees with your statement.https://youtu.be/6pivtRMOf8s?t=2341

If he says his 4 F-22's will kill 12 opposing F-15's in under 3 minutes, I'll take the plane that survives. You're correct about the F-15 losing every time though.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread, aka F-35 vs CF-18, how many jet-engines do you need to overthrow a government?

[jutes]

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So. There is a probability that a final assembly F-35 got shot down by China/Russia or simply had a mechanical failure of some sort (think Ford Pinto)

Great thread bump with your useless drivel. Japan already released their findings months ago and it wasn't UFOs or china. https://www.defensenews.com/global/a...or-f-35-crash/

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The F-22 to F-15 Kill ratio was advertised as being ridiculously one sided. I wonder if the same can be said if one were to compare F-35 vs CF-18.

First of all, who cares. Besides training and exercises those jets will never see combat against each other. Secondly, Alberta isn't seperating so talk of hypothetical air battles is pure non sense, more so when you are assuming that every aircraft is at 100% serviceability at any one time. In the past 3 decades of owning the CF-18s, there has never been a time when every single one was airworthy.

[revelations]

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Thanks for your input...here's a pilot (of both aircraft) who disagrees with your statement.https://youtu.be/6pivtRMOf8s?t=2341

If he says his 4 F-22's will kill 12 opposing F-15's in under 3 minutes, I'll take the plane that survives. You're correct about the F-15 losing every time though.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread, aka F-35 vs CF-18, how many jet-engines do you need to overthrow a government?

Disagrees with what exactly? That you can compare an Eagle to a Raptor as equals? He never said that.

Might as well compare a Vietman era Phantom to a block 70 Viper. Completely mismatched if pitted against one another, BVR or not.

[ZenOps]

I'd assume you would need zero F-xx to overtake the US government. About 5 million angry Mexicans with shotguns would have a chance though.

If the F-35 ends up only being roughly on par with China and Russia counterparts, then I have no trouble saying that the USA is vastly overextended in global conflicts.

[jutes]

In case any of you are still paying attention.

Three competitors are left:

F-35 (likely to make the most sense);
Super Hornet (not good but not terrible);
Gripen (just lol. Only loved by internet fanbois and failing Quebec entrepreneurs).

Today the Feds are looking to fast track the VIP and Tanker fleet replacement.

Ottawa eyeing second-hand market to replace VIP and cargo fleet
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ott...anes-1.5850140

The federal government is exploring the possibility of replacing its aging fleet of transportation planes as part of a planned bailout of the country's battered airline industry, federal sources said.

While plans to replace the Canadian Armed Forces' five CC-150 Polaris aircraft have been in the works for years, government officials said they have started to look at whether any deal can be found among commercial airlines that are currently looking for financial relief from Ottawa.

The airline industry has been one of the hardest hit by the COVID-19 pandemic and is facing a liquidity crisis, having been forced to cut back on a number of regular routes amid a sharp decline in demand.

This is not the worst idea in the world. Help out struggling airlines by purchasing unused aircraft for military purposes, save money and get newer transports. Pick up a small fleet of A330s, send them to Spain for conversion and you have yourself a A330MRTT.

If anyone wants to make a bid: https://buyandsell.gc.ca/procurement...PW-20-00938667

[killramos]

I’d love to see Trudeau on a Max 8

[Buster]

what do quebec entrepreneurs have to do with the Gripen?