Calgary Flames New Arena Update

[killramos]

Originally posted by Buster
The economic studies are quite clear: pro sports stadiums do not bring economic growth to a city.

Pshhh my years of sim city experience say otherwise

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by riander5
I just dont understand how regular people who attend flames games and concerts and other events wouldnt be for this.

Because it's estimated it would cost Calgary taxpayers $1.2 BILLION of the $1.8 total cost.

That's not exactly a small cost, and most people are already furious about the amount of property tax as it is. Then add the extra proposed ticket tax on top of the already high ticket price of attending anything in the current Dome.

I've said it before, pass some laws giving them the land as is, they can pay to clean it, and build the facility, City can pay the surrounding infrastructure. I don't think that's an unfair deal.

[adam c]

Originally posted by killramos
Ummm Quebec City?

Bettman already stated there will be no teams in Quebec City due to the unbalanced conferences

[riander5]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


Because it's estimated it would cost Calgary taxpayers $1.2 BILLION of the $1.8 total cost.

That's not exactly a small cost, and most people are already furious about the amount of property tax as it is. Then add the extra proposed ticket tax on top of the already high ticket price of attending anything in the current Dome.

I've said it before, pass some laws giving them the land as is, they can pay to clean it, and build the facility, City can pay the surrounding infrastructure. I don't think that's an unfair deal.

How much is the SE ring road going to cost? I never use the fucking ring road. I dont bitch about it though. Build the arena!

[rage2]

Originally posted by btimbit
They'd lose more money moving than they would by just building an arena themselves. It's just posturing, they're not going anywhere

In the grand scheme of things, NHL teams profitability and loss is small potatoes and doesn't really factor much into their decisions. It's like buying rental property, you're making/losing small amounts of money yearly, where the big bucks come in is the appreciation of the asset down the road.

When it comes down to it, the ownership group would just sell the team off, realize a couple hundred million in capital gains, and it'll be the next owner and new city's problems.

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
Because it's estimated it would cost Calgary taxpayers $1.2 BILLION of the $1.8 total cost.

That's not exactly a small cost, and most people are already furious about the amount of property tax as it is. Then add the extra proposed ticket tax on top of the already high ticket price of attending anything in the current Dome.

The city went kind of balls out with that $1.8b report. They added tons of fluff to inflate the numbers, choosing the most expensive remediation costs including surrounding areas not associated with CalgaryNEXT, infrastructure of surrounding areas not associated with the project, as well as financing costs which are never included in public projects for comparisons sake. If you're bored, you can see the details here:

http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sire...a&itemid=43230

The real number is somewhere between CSEC and COC's numbers, but everyone seems to agree on the building costs pegged at $890m.

[blownz]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
Also, downtown Edmonton is f*&king crazy now. I hate going down there except maybe for a date. For the yuppy wannabes its great though.

Downtown Edmonton has done nothing but improve since Roger's place opened up. It had been getting better for a few years, but the extra people now is great, and it will only get better once the entire ice district is complete. Downtown Edmonton can handle the people and traffic so much better than the area where the old arena was. I work in the west end and have a parking spot downtown for games/concerts and I can leave the west end between 4:30 and 5pm and be parked downtown in 20 minutes and walking to one of many restaurants. Did it last Thursday for the Oilers game at Rogers and Friday for the I love 90's concert at Shaw.


As for Calgary, I am positive a new arena will be built at some point. Timing is obviously bad right now, but it will get done and I am sure with some public help like in Edmonton. Until that day happens though, I know the OEG and YEG are enjoying the extra business and lack of competition.

[rage2]

Originally posted by blownz
Downtown Edmonton has done nothing but improve since Roger's place opened up. It had been getting better for a few years, but the extra people now is great, and it will only get better once the entire ice district is complete. Downtown Edmonton can handle the people and traffic so much better than the area where the old arena was. I work in the west end and have a parking spot downtown for games/concerts and I can leave the west end between 4:30 and 5pm and be parked downtown in 20 minutes and walking to one of many restaurants. Did it last Thursday for the Oilers game at Rogers and Friday for the I love 90's concert at Shaw.

It'll be interesting to see how downtown Edmonton looks after a few years when the shiny new toy effect runs its course. Although I am surprised at Winnipeg, the new arena has really turned the area around. I used to spend quite a bit of time there, and it's night and day since MTS Center replaced Eaton center, which was a fucking dump and made the surrounding area ghetto.

Originally posted by blownz
As for Calgary, I am positive a new arena will be built at some point. Timing is obviously bad right now, but it will get done and I am sure with some public help like in Edmonton. Until that day happens though, I know the OEG and YEG are enjoying the extra business and lack of competition.

As a hockey fan and a regular concert goer, I'm hoping something will be done, but ya, the timing couldn't be any worse. A large portion of the city doesn't care about concerts or hockey, so they'll bitch and whine, just like how a large portion of the city doesn't give a fuck over the Peace Bridge, the mega library, and bitch and whine about it haha.

[C_Dave45]

I don't know where people are getting that our property taxes are going to go up to cover the entire Billion dollar cost of the project.
Edmonton's property tax didn't increase at all. Katz' companies covered about a third of the cost and the city collects rent on the buidling for 35 years plus it owns the building and land.

https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_pla...agreement.aspx

[dandia89]

-$200 million US to relocate a franchise.
-Failing US teams would love a calgary market
-economics of publicly funded stadiums have a bad track record

yeah i think this is an easy lay-up for calgary. This isn't the NFL. Hockey doesn't have a ton of cities to move to. Also, if he does move the team, there's going to be a bidding war for other failing teams to move to calgary, and they'd give a way better deal.

I want a new stadium, but not when we are being handed shitty cards from a greasy salesman

[Buster]

Originally posted by riander5


How much is the SE ring road going to cost? I never use the fucking ring road. I dont bitch about it though. Build the arena!

The difference between public funds for projects isn't whether you will use it or not...it's whether or not it's "public good" or not.

Is the ring road a public good? Yes

Is a new Flames arena a public good? No

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by Buster


The difference between public funds for projects isn't whether you will use it or not...it's whether or not it's "public good" or not.

Is the ring road a public good? Yes

Is a new Flames arena a public good? No

Who determines what is a "public good"? Seems to be the kind of thing for which no objective measure is possible.

[01RedDX]

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[kertejud2]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
I don't know where people are getting that our property taxes are going to go up to cover the entire Billion dollar cost of the project.
Edmonton's property tax didn't increase at all. Katz' companies covered about a third of the cost and the city collects rent on the buidling for 35 years plus it owns the building and land.

https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_pla...agreement.aspx

The city already owns the land, and it already owns a building. A new arena just brings the value of the other to effectively zero and gives up potential revenue from a land sale, and owning the building gives up future property tax revenue. So there's that.

Then there is the tune of $440M that directly has to come from the city (more than Edmonton was asking for), half of which is part of a CRL that won't get funded (unlike Edmonton) so it will have to be made up from the general revenue meaning operation costs have to go down or tax revenue needs to increase. More importantly, that CRL can't then go to infrastructure changes, improvements or remediation, which brings the project cost to well over a billion dollars and the city's required contribution close to 10 figures assuming the lower end of those costs. Same thing, that money has to come from somewhere when the CRL doesn't generate enough money on its own.

[Buster]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow

Who determines what is a "public good"? Seems to be the kind of thing for which no objective measure is possible.

It's a technical term used by economists.

Basically it means that it is a "good" that everyone can use, and isn't "consumed" or rendered excluded in the usage. In other words, me using the good doesn't mean that you CAN'T use the good.

Roads are a good example. They can be used by everyone, and me using it doesn't make it unavailable for you to use.

The can actually be either public or privately owned.

[Buster]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


Want vs. need. Transportation infrastructure = need. new sports arena = want.

Not quite. If I build a giant statue of Beyonce on my farm and invite anyone to come see it, it's still a public good. Although definitely not a "need." haha

[Xtrema]

Can anyone show us numbers of economic benefit of a pro hockey team?

Apparently Ottawa Senators brings in $3B in 25 years, 1/2 of it direct.

Say Flames have similar impact. How much of that $3B can be converted into income for CoC? Whatever that income is, that's the budget of stadium. Problem solved?

If that isn't enough money, Atlanta Flames it is?

Ideally, I rather have some provincial money and give us a new stadium like Edmonton but that's political suicide right now for any politicians committing to a stadium, doesn't matter at which level.

[01RedDX]

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[Buster]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


It was more in response to his statement of "no objective measure" but I do believe your definition is slightly off-base as well. When defining "public goods" what we really should be looking at are their "exludability/rivalrous" factors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excludability

I was trying to keep it layman.

[01RedDX]

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[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Buster


Not quite. If I build a giant statue of Beyonce on my farm and invite anyone to come see it, it's still a public good. Although definitely not a "need." haha

Public good: is a good that is both non-excludable and non-rivalrous in that individuals cannot be effectively excluded from use and where use by one individual does not reduce availability to others.