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    Default Why the teachers’ unions rule

    Do yourself a "favour" and calculate a teacher's comp assuming they don't get 3 months off.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle27047599/


    Teachers flourish because public-sector unions have unique advantages. They have virtually no competition. They can operate as inefficiently as they want and never go bankrupt. They are masters at resisting accountability and entrenching rigid work rules that protect their members. Unlike private-sector unions, they don’t have to worry that their employer will go out of business. They can count on an endless supply of money, courtesy of the taxpayer. And if the money runs out, they can always lean on politicians to raise taxes.

    Government unions are always lobbying for bigger government and higher taxes, because that means more members, more money and more power for them. Teachers’ unions have an extra edge because teachers are popular, and there are so many of them, and because teacher strikes are an awful nuisance to so many people. Governments hate teacher strikes because they know the public will blame them, too.

    So when cuts must be made, it’s easier to cut something else. This year, Ontario unilaterally cut doctors’ fees by 4.45 per cent, and that may be just the start. The doctors howled, but nobody cared or even noticed. Most people figure that doctors have it pretty good, and the public will only start to notice when there aren’t enough of them. If the government tried to cut teachers’ salaries by the same amount, people would notice right away. There would be riots at Queen’s Park and chaos in the schools, and the teachers would be furious for a decade.

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    Teaching is a good gig. It is a tough job, but it's well compensated and has amazing vacation, benefits and pension.
    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    You realize you are talking to the guy who made his own furniture out of salad bowls right?

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    Originally posted by ExtraSlow
    Teaching is a good gig. It is a tough job, but it's well compensated and has amazing vacation, benefits and pension.
    I don't think their compensation is all that great, 6 years of school + 6 more years of work, and the salary is barely 80k if I recall correctly, it maxes out at 100k after 10 years of work, unless you take your masters become a vice principal or above. (so 100k is the max you can get even after 20 yrs) Don't get me wrong, that is a decent pay but I still think teachers are under compensated.

    I always hear teachers get great benefits and pension
    but from what I hear, they pay into their own pension with out employer matching, and the benefits are no better than the average
    what am I missing?
    Last edited by Akumaz; 11-04-2015 at 11:35 AM.

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    I think a large number of them have masters degrees. I don't know the full pay scale, but 100k for those hours is pretty good to me. Especially ina stable industry.

    People like to boast about the high salaries in the O&G business, but part of the reason for that is the cyclical nature of the business, and the fact that layoffs are pretty common, as the younger folks are learning.
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    Their pensions are defined benefit with the province legally mandated to make up shortfalls. That is what is good about their pensions. They are guaranteed to get it regardless of how the economy does. I don't know if by contract the education boards pay at all into the pensions, though i do know that all of this information is publicly available due to the bargaining process if you look for it. They also receive said pension after a relatively short period of time.

    Their health benefits are pretty equivalent to what working in the private sector would get you.

    One of the big things is it is pretty much impossible to get fired as a teacher outside of first year. Its basically as secure as university tenure. I think damn near the only way to get fired is touching kids.

    There is also no performance component to their pay, which means there is no motivation to excel in their jobs. They get a raise every year no matter what.

    The required education is a joke. You can be done in 4 years if you want to, which does affect pay scales slightly but not significantly. Aside from that its a standard bachelors program, with no real GPA requirements. Then a 2 year political correctness brainwashing seminar where you get an A so long as you keep your mouth shut.

    Also maxing out at 105 k to work 3/4 of the year with complete job security and no performance requirements to get there is a pretty sweet compensation structure.

    Teachers also do make more than that at the top end particularly by marking provincial exams in the summer, leading departments within the schools, chairing committees, or taking other jobs within the CBE. Lots of other options than becoming a Principle or VP. If you don't believe me check the province and cities sunshine list for people making over 100k with education titles.

    All that considered you could never pay me enough to do the job. Fuck dealing with other peoples shitty kids 8 hours a day.

    Also people need to understand how skewed we really are in Calgary as to what people think is an acceptable salary.
    Last edited by killramos; 11-04-2015 at 11:55 AM.
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

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    fact.
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    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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    ^ What he said.

    Although I think the public service in general is in for a rude awakening at some point in the future. If the taxpayer ever does rise up, we see strange things happen, like the muni bankruptcies in the US.

    Either way, I think the teaching industry is ripe for disruption by technology. Autonomous cars and our education and health systems will be the big changes for us in our remaining lifetimes.

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    There is no need for years of schooling at the elementary level. If you know basic math, reading and writing skills, then 1 year of curriculum training (including teaching critical thinking) is enough.

    You teach the kid the above, and then allow them to pursue their own imagination and interests. Anything else, is indoctrination.

    But again, indoctrination and self righteousness is exactly what's happening. Forced useless and often erroneous facts, no decent life skill teachings, and a complete lack of teaching the most important thing in life: critical thinking.

    Then to add insult to injury, the kids don't have time to play and nourish imagination, as they have "homework"

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    Originally posted by Akumaz


    I don't think their compensation is all that great, 6 years of school + 6 more years of work, and the salary is barely 80k if I recall correctly, it maxes out at 100k after 10 years of work, unless you take your masters become a vice principal or above. (so 100k is the max you can get even after 20 yrs) Don't get me wrong, that is a decent pay but I still think teachers are under compensated.

    I always hear teachers get great benefits and pension
    but from what I hear, they pay into their own pension with out employer matching, and the benefits are no better than the average
    what am I missing?
    Most teachers fresh out of school make more than most engineers as per the apega pay scale. They work less, have better benefits, mandatory raises, and quasi untouchability when it comes to dismissal. I mean as a Teacher you get something north of 3 months off work. So I am at a loss how anyone can argue that 100k with 3+ months off is not very well compensated.

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    Teacher gigs are sweet but consider the red tape and shit you have to go thru in early career to get in and the fact that each decade both students and parent quality get worst and worst, I rather be a janitor than teacher.

    It's almost a hazardous job if you teach anyone over 10 years old.

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    $80k? I'd take that...$100k? shit, I am dreaming!
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    Originally posted by Xtrema
    Teacher gigs are sweet but consider the red tape and shit you have to go thru in early career to get in and the fact that each decade both students and parent quality get worst and worst, I rather be a janitor than teacher.

    It's almost a hazardous job if you teach anyone over 10 years old.
    What are the stats for teachers quitting after 5 years in Canada? I believe it's 50% in the US.

    I have a lot of teacher friends and dated one as well. I admire teachers and think they deserve everything.
    Originally posted by rage2
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    Wow what a degrading article from an Ontario-based publication. Not hard to see how they feel about teachers there and their (omg) insanely wealthy Teachers Pension Plan. In their mind teachers are, therefore, elitists pricks

    The number of hours that the average teacher in ALBERTA works is not 40 (HS teacher, 50-60). Also, during summers off youre in the classroom prepping for the next year well before school starts. In some places teachers are also expected to volunteer after hours with sports and activities during the school year.

    No, I cant see a degree being necessary to supervise/teach Kindergarten kids - but HS I can see it being a good idea.
    Last edited by revelations; 11-04-2015 at 12:31 PM.

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    Coming in early from a summer off is not a hardship.

    Being paid in the top 10%, with all the other benefits is not a hardship.

    You know what I my wife and I do after we put the kids to bed? Not secksy time. No.

    We both pull out our....laptops and work. Every night.

    Teachers complain about "extra" hours, but that's normal for professionals.

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    Originally posted by max_boost


    What are the stats for teachers quitting after 5 years in Canada? I believe it's 50% in the US.

    I have a lot of teacher friends and dated one as well. I admire teachers and think they deserve everything.
    In Canada we have the opposite problem there are more teachers graduating than jobs to be filled. Everyone wants in on the lucrative career path frankly.

    Alberta Education (2012, 14) estimates an attrition rate of up to 25 per cent within the first four years of teaching. In
    making this calculation, the department defines a teacher who has “left the system” as one who “is no longer actively
    employed with a school jurisdiction in Alberta and has not been for a full five years. The individual may have quit
    teaching, moved to another province or country to teach, or moved into a different career field.”
    I have friends of mine that have been trying to get full time positions for the last few years and are still stuck in the subbing limbo. There's just too many people trying to become school teachers and far far too much nepotism in the hiring practices.

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    Originally posted by Xtrema
    Teacher gigs are sweet but consider the red tape and shit you have to go thru in early career to get in and the fact that each decade both students and parent quality get worst and worst, I rather be a janitor than teacher.

    It's almost a hazardous job if you teach anyone over 10 years old.
    At the last day of elementary school, the kids burst through the doors and rejoice in that they have at least been temporarily released of BS.

    Education should be a natural and fun characteristic, and it is so at the daycare and kindergarten level. Beyond that, the so called "teachers" are being paid to teach something even worse than nonsense. Then you have the specialists, and in general, those people are worth their weight.

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    So we have an abundance of supply in the oil business...and prices come down.

    An abundance of supply in teacher production, and prices go up?

    Tells you waht you need to know, I guess.

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    Originally posted by killramos
    They are guaranteed to get it regardless of how the economy does
    Oh? News to me. Funny things with governments is that they make the laws and rules. When you, yourself have PERSONALLY invested hundreds of thousands of dollars into a program that you are forced to invest in with no control over, there better be some goddamn guarantees IMO. Yea yea, argument of "get a different job", sure. But the fact is, as the Alberta and Ontario gov's have demonstrated, defined benefit pensions are not nearly as "defined" as one would think.

    To me, my pension is nothing more than a fallback to insure I don't die old and hungry in a cardboard box.

    Originally posted by killramos
    There is also no performance component to their pay, which means there is no motivation to excel in their jobs. They get a raise every year no matter what.
    What would you like to see their performance measured on? The largest variable by far for teaching kids is outside a teacher's (and the school's) reach; home life. A fascinating article was recently posted on Bloomberg about USA's Common Core, and it really extends to any country and their education system.

    The required education is a joke. You can be done in 4 years if you want to, which does affect pay scales slightly but not significantly. Aside from that its a standard bachelors program, with no real GPA requirements. Then a 2 year political correctness brainwashing seminar where you get an A so long as you keep your mouth shut.
    I definitely agree with this. However, arguably for grade 7 and lower I don't think anything more is required. What is needed is a better structure to schooling (which has changed a lot since both you or I were in grade school). My mom is a teacher (she worked for private industry in HR positions until her early 40's and then went back for her ed degree) and now at 55 it blows her mind the way things have changed.

    Also maxing out at 105 k to work 3/4 of the year with complete job security and no performance requirements to get there is a pretty sweet compensation structure.
    I don't know many teachers that are at that level. I also don't know what your whole "3/4" of the year thing is, that's basically your standard 40h per week monday thru friday job. And holy shit, they have to look after other people's 30 asshole children every day

    Teachers also do make more than that at the top end particularly by marking provincial exams in the summer, leading departments within the schools, chairing committees, or taking other jobs within the CBE. Lots of other options than becoming a Principle or VP. If you don't believe me check the province and cities sunshine list for people making over 100k with education titles.
    So? Should teachers not be paid well? There is an odd contrast on beyond between private industry (especially business owners) should be able to earn unlimited $$$, but government employees who are useful should not. A typically hilarious beyond double standard.

    All that considered you could never pay me enough to do the job. Fuck dealing with other peoples shitty kids 8 hours a day.
    Completely agree, which is why I think teachers are properly compensated.

    Also people need to understand how skewed we really are in Calgary as to what people think is an acceptable salary. [/B]
    Its insanity. Alberta is one of the richest places in the world. I remember in the 90's when everyone drove rusty shitboxes, especially in the smaller cities/towns.

    Originally posted by mazdavirgin

    Most teachers fresh out of school make more than most engineers as per the apega pay scale.
    Please, I am genuinely curious as to where this info is from? Because that is not the case from what I have seen
    Last edited by HiTempguy1; 11-04-2015 at 02:10 PM.

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    https://einsteinsgifts.files.wordpre...895349_n-1.png

    NOW we can talk about the educational system outside of the box.

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    Originally posted by mazdavirgin


    In Canada we have the opposite problem there are more teachers graduating than jobs to be filled. Everyone wants in on the lucrative career path frankly.



    I have friends of mine that have been trying to get full time positions for the last few years and are still stuck in the subbing limbo. There's just too many people trying to become school teachers and far far too much nepotism in the hiring practices.
    Competition in the English sector is

    French however much easier to get in (not sure if that has changed).
    Originally posted by rage2
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    .
    Last edited by Cos; 12-20-2016 at 10:58 PM.
    Originally posted by adam c

    Line goes up, line goes down, line does squiggly things and fucks Alberta
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