Elon Musk: Robots will take your jobs, government will have to pay your wage

[Buster]

Originally posted by BigMass


"the simpleton" lol. You begin with a completely faulty premise therefore your conclusion is false. Automation is not gradual or linear it is exponential and will hit us as a society much faster than you expect. And to make my position clear, I am %100 for automation and the faster we can continue to permeate our society with it the better. Your ideas are extremely outdated.

We agree on your last points.

But I disagree that automation is exponential. It is rather lumpy.

[ZenOps]

I wouldn't trust a computer to be paying my wage either.

Assuming that the basic personality traits of mankind will appear in computer AI first, Greed will be near top of the list. Violence is actually much lower for as long as you can get more stuff by keeping more humans alive.



I'm sure right now a computer is eating up the fractional payments of all rounded transactions everywhere. As for now, a human is the beneficiary. But it may revert back to the machine once again.

BTW: $143/week used to be typical salary back when they made that movie.. Jeebus, hurts to think about it.

[g-m]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


I doubt that very much for a number of reasons. First is no matter how much you give to people to survive on, it won't be enough to satisfy their needs, wants, and then desires.

The second reason is even if you were able to give them everything, most people will squander it. Look at the rich Chinese kids in Vancouver... are they focusing on things like science, philosophy, arts, and balanced living? Or are they squandering it on luxury cars and expensive parties?

You give people a living wage... my bet is that people will party in the streets, then get bored and start feeling entitled to more, and eventually it will turn into social unrest.

it's the communism/first nations problem

[BigMass]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


I doubt that very much for a number of reasons. First is no matter how much you give to people to survive on, it won't be enough to satisfy their needs, wants, and then desires.

The second reason is even if you were able to give them everything, most people will squander it. Look at the rich Chinese kids in Vancouver... are they focusing on things like science, philosophy, arts, and balanced living? Or are they squandering it on luxury cars and expensive parties?

You give people a living wage... my bet is that people will party in the streets, then get bored and start feeling entitled to more, and eventually it will turn into social unrest.

1) going to ignore your comment on rich Chinese kids because this has zero relevancy on a basic income that will "basically" just pay for "basic needs" such as food, shelter and some "basic" clothes. So I can't see the equivalence to rich spoiled brats / or rich rockstars that have all the money in the world then just get addicted to coke and die at 27. There is just no equivalency there.

2) I agree people will not be satisfied and people will still seek out jobs and other means of income. Most will not be great but will be enough to supplement the basic income and most will be able to do what they want if they work hard enough at it. That is the hope.

3) The majority of people will still have jobs. People think that a basic income means that everyone in Canada will just be sitting at home and rubbing themselves off. Its just not the case.

4) I have made this point many times before on this forum but we already have a basic income in the rough sense of the word. Welfare, disability, EI, AISH, Fair Entry, etc Tons of programs that can be replaced with just a single one (for the most part). I have gone into greater detail in past posts about this point but it is a major one people need to consider.

Originally posted by g-m
it's the communism/first nations problem

About as ignorant (communism) and racist (first nations) comment I've heard in a while. The amount of depth and complexity in the discussion involving the horrible detriments of communism and the plight of the first nations is immense and not something to toss out as a quick talking point.

[revelations]

Originally posted by BigMass
About as ignorant (communism) and racist (first nations) comment I've heard in a while. The amount of depth and complexity in the discussion involving the horrible detriments of communism and the plight of the first nations is immense and not something to toss out as a quick talking point.

The definition of racism is when one compares themselves in a superior manner. The poster made a stereotypical reference.

The poster is also not wrong. Both are good examples of what can happen to masses when the incentive to work has been removed.

Most wont find ways to better themselves.

[BigMass]

Originally posted by revelations


The definition of racism is when one compares themselves in a superior manner. The poster made a stereotypical reference.

The poster is also not wrong. Both are good examples of what can happen to masses when the incentive to work has been removed.

Most wont find ways to better themselves.

TBH im fucking sick of the rich fat cat argument that giving poor people a living wage will make a bunch of lazy fucks drive society downwards. What we REALLY should be doing is giving more tax breaks to rich people and corporations because some rich asshole that has 1 billion REALLY needs 2 billion or FUCK IT, 1 trillion. We're all for giving rich people more money than God but can't stand giving poor people a safety net. I find it actually fucking disgusting and repugnant.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[revelations]

Originally posted by BigMass


TBH im fucking sick of the rich fat cat argument that giving poor people a living wage will make a bunch of lazy fucks drive society downwards. What we REALLY should be doing is giving more tax breaks to rich people and corporations because some rich asshole that has 1 billion REALLY needs 2 billion or FUCK IT, 1 trillion. We're all for giving rich people more money than God but can't stand giving poor people a safety net. I find it actually fucking disgusting and repugnant.

Agreed - for eg. the middle income class needs to be taxed FAR less and the upper end FAR more. Middle income after all is where the vast majority of consumers come from - which creates demand, which then leads to jobs, etc.

I am 100% for a Basic Annual Income. Not everyone can or wants to work - but thats fine. Make sure it is incentivized properly though.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by BigMass

. But not enough unless you want to see 20 homeless people outside your suburban McMansion on a daily basis huddled around trashcan fires to keep warm.

.

This is what you don't get.

This is what it leads to. A few people massively wealthy, with the rest starving.

With automation and AI, he who controls/creates it wins. People aren't inherently ultruistic.

And all your claims are refuted against the backdrop of USA TOTAL employment.

Beyond all of that, fuck off. I pay enough for lazy shits already. Or did you miss the notice that the upper tax rate is over 50% in most of Canada? Money doesn't magically grow on trees, god damn you dont understand or have a basic grasp of economics or even business

[g-m]

Originally posted by BigMass
About as ignorant (communism) and racist (first nations) comment I've heard in a while. The amount of depth and complexity in the discussion involving the horrible detriments of communism and the plight of the first nations is immense and not something to toss out as a quick talking point.

oh bah golly I'm sorry Mr Principal. I'm sorry I offended your sensibilities. I really am curious.

[cancer man]

Soylent Green..2022

[JRSC00LUDE]

Serious question. Is there an example of a multi-generational State imposed/funded minimum standard of living platform for people that is/was successful? Or which the benefits largely outweigh the drawbacks?

If so, inform us. If not, explain why and how one would work. Not with emotion but with logic and fact.

There either is a model that will function in spite of human nature or there isn't.

[ZenOps]

There isn't really any historical data on whether the Egyptian pharaohs had a populace that was prosperous or even happy.

Assuming that the current system is similar.

Sure, they were kept alive long enough to spend their entire lives building (half) a pyramid. A pyramid that arguably is a wonder of the world, or just a gigantic tombstone to play on the ego of one man. But how did they live? Did they have fun distractions like Pokémon and pizza, or did their entire lives consist of waking up in the morning pulling 20 tons bricks until the light of day was gone?

Does Galen Weston simply see you as a means to sell more food so that he can get from $10 Billion to $100 Billion faster than you can get enough money for a downpayment on a house?

Its fallacy to think that Capitalism has worked the majority of the time through history too. Capitalism and communism have both failed depending on circumstance.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...sm-poll-shows/

Is the US going to build a wall that will take a lifetime to finish? And I've said it before, when Trump is winning he is capitalist, when he is losing he is socialist. Nobody ever said you couldn't have a chocolate ice cream one day, and vanilla the next afterall.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
There either is a model that will function in spite of human nature or there isn't.

There isn't. Human nature is human nature. The type of structure BigMass is talking about would be a colossal failure.

[BigMass]

I'm continually pleased to see that the people I respect and enjoy listening to hold these ideas and pretty much exclusively support Hillary

https://twitter.com/seanmcarroll/sta...81066451247104

[Buster]

Originally posted by ZenOps
There isn't really any historical data on whether the Egyptian pharaohs had a populace that was prosperous or even happy.

Assuming that the current system is similar.

Sure, they were kept alive long enough to spend their entire lives building (half) a pyramid. A pyramid that arguably is a wonder of the world, or just a gigantic tombstone to play on the ego of one man. But how did they live? Did they have fun distractions like Pokémon and pizza, or did their entire lives consist of waking up in the morning pulling 20 tons bricks until the light of day was gone?

Does Galen Weston simply see you as a means to sell more food so that he can get from $10 Billion to $100 Billion faster than you can get enough money for a downpayment on a house?

Its fallacy to think that Capitalism has worked the majority of the time through history too. Capitalism and communism have both failed depending on circumstance.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...sm-poll-shows/

Is the US going to build a wall that will take a lifetime to finish? And I've said it before, when Trump is winning he is capitalist, when he is losing he is socialist. Nobody ever said you couldn't have a chocolate ice cream one day, and vanilla the next afterall.

I would like to see an example of where capitalism has failed so we can properly assess the reasons. People sometimes blame capitalism for various failures, but often the failure is when a capitalist structure gets abandoned or perverted (as in the current US - which is really a "crony capitalist" state-run mess).

[revelations]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
Serious question. Is there an example of a multi-generational State imposed/funded minimum standard of living platform for people that is/was successful? Or which the benefits largely outweigh the drawbacks?

If so, inform us. If not, explain why and how one would work. Not with emotion but with logic and fact.

There either is a model that will function in spite of human nature or there isn't.

I suppose the Nordic countries are examples of where socialism (and therefore collectivism) has worked out quite well the past 80-100 years or so.

Everyone is usually afforded the same opportunity regardless of background. Education is mostly free (used to be completely free but free-loaders went to school just to party and drink). Health and Dental care are 95%-100% free.

Also the WAY of thinking in these societies is far more group-think than individual, which we have to change. This is part of the problem in NA.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by Buster


I would like to see an example of where capitalism has failed so we can properly assess the reasons. People sometimes blame capitalism for various failures, but often the failure is when a capitalist structure gets abandoned or perverted (as in the current US - which is really a "crony capitalist" state-run mess).

I think that is a great observation. The reality is capitalism and socialism are just concepts. Neither can function perfectly in the real world because they ignore all the nuances the human factor brings.

I don't even think people who are pro socialist or pro capitalist know what that truly means at the end of the day.....Any socialist will have a tough time honestly saying that someone who works themselves to the bone and makes all the right decisions shouldn't be in someway compensated for that. On the same note I've asked extremely outspoken capitalists if they were to be laid off and couldn't find work would they claim EI. I have yet to have one of them say no (but they will come up with some mental gymnastics to try to rationalize it) yet that is the absolute pinnacle of socialism. So really people don't even grasp the ideas of what pure capitalism and pure socialism actually mean.

[dubhead]

Just going going to be honest... If I was guaranteed enough to cover a basic standard of living I would likely move to the mountains and snowboard everyday

[GorG]