Physician Cost-Cutting

[AndyL]

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Exactly. Rates need to be aligned with non-rate set job differentials. Doctors in Alberta should be paid higher than the rest of Canada at a differential that is is roughly on par with non-medical fields.

Considering we're spending >2000$/person more on programs than Ontario... And have the lowest tax rate in Canada...

Shouldn't they be getting less? Everyone keeps comparing back against our still insane minimum wage and I'm finding this rather confusing... Alberta public sector is paid better than everyone but Saskatchewan and Nunavut - but if you went there you'd be truly in small/rural communities overall compared to Alberta.

My cousin (teacher) in the GTA is paid 20k less than her equivalent here in Calgary. Then chip away that income tax sales tax, cost of living in Toronto - so why are we paying so much more for teachers? This isn't 1998 anymore we're not desperately short needing to attract from elsewhere?

[oilerfan4lyfe]

The biggest problem here isn't that they're trying to cut doctor wages, it's HOW they want to do it. As previously mentioned, they're disproportionately punishing doctors who actually spend time with patients or ones that have complex patient panels. A doc who sees 50 patients a day isn't getting cut very much, but a doc who spends 20 mins per patient and sees 20 a day gets hit extremely hard.

If they wanted to cut, the smartest thing to do would have been to take a certain percentage right across the board. All doctors who bill, regardless of specialty get a 5% cut...ends up saving the system somewhere around the same amount as these cuts. I believe the Alberta Medical Association proposed a 3% cut across the board in negotiations (I can't confirm this). The government's response rather than negotiating was to terminate the contract that they had with the medical association and do whatever the eff they wanted to.

Another huge problem is how they're picking fights with physicians in the media with their bullshit numbers. They like to spew that doctors on average make $90,000 a year more than they do in other provinces. That's not even close to true. They cherry picked numbers from many years ago, ignored physicians in other provinces who are paid on other models (such as salary), ignored recent pay increases given in other provinces, excluded Saskatchewan from their number set and didn't account for number of hours actually worked. Then they go on a rampage about how a family doctor gets $40 for an appointment...except that out of that $40 comes payment to staff, rent, malpractice insurance, license fees, equipment, computer fees, etc. They completely ignore the fact that most family doctors operate like businesses and don't actually get to keep that wage. Like every other business, they have expenses to pay which comes out of their own pockets.

My own personal thought is that this is just the start for them to work towards a privately paid system. A unit of scaling at my dentist is $70 for 15 minutes - that's with the hygienist only. My chiropractor charges $90 for a 20 minute follow up appointment. If you're paying doctors half that amount, the next logical step is to either force a co-pay or hope that doctors want to go private so that they can lay some more blame on them.

This simply isn't going to go well for Alberta. Most doctors would have sucked up a pay cut negotiated in good faith. Instead, a severe lack of trust between government and physicians is where we now stand. Most doctors won't have Kenney and Shandro telling them how to practice medicine and how to care for patients.

[Buster]

I wonder how many of those doctors subscribe to an anti-oil agenda for Canada?

Do people want to know what happens when they are idealists about Canada's climate change plans and how we actually generate wealth in this country?

It means 5 minutes less with your doctor.

[ExtraSlow]

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I wonder how many of those doctors subscribe to an anti-oil agenda for Canada?

Do people want to know what happens when they are idealists about Canada's climate change plans and how we actually generate wealth in this country?

It means 5 minutes less with your doctor.

Quoted, because it's worth repeating.

[lasimmon]

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Doctors' skills are highly transferable. Why dont they moved somewhere else? Why the complaints?

Not everyone wants to move or sell their practice and move to another jurisdiction and some actually care about their patients. Shocking I know.

[msommers]

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I wonder how many of those doctors subscribe to an anti-oil agenda for Canada?

Do people want to know what happens when they are idealists about Canada's climate change plans and how we actually generate wealth in this country?

It means 5 minutes less with your doctor.

Likely a very small minority. I can't think of a single person and I know quite a few. I just honestly don't think they care about it because Alberta typically pays better as a result. I think the possible notion of 'biting the hand that feeds you' is unfounded and not representative of most MDs in Alberta.

Now elsewhere in Canada that may be different. Particularly in Ontario. Though a friend who took a full time position in Calgary, from Ottawa, went through the same thing there not that long ago. It's deja vu for sure and feels all this protesting will lead to nothing but contempt for the government and working in Alberta.

Oilerfan has an excellent point. The people who need the most care are going to suffer the most (complex casing getting less consult time). And then end up in ER, costing us all more money in the long-run. And the patient suffers.

This whole thing is just optics.

[blitz]

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The biggest problem here isn't that they're trying to cut doctor wages, it's HOW they want to do it. As previously mentioned, they're disproportionately punishing doctors who actually spend time with patients or ones that have complex patient panels. A doc who sees 50 patients a day isn't getting cut very much, but a doc who spends 20 mins per patient and sees 20 a day gets hit extremely hard.

This is exactly it. It's rewarding doctors who spend the least amount of time possible with their patients and punishing those who work with vulnerable populations who need more than 10 minutes at a time.

[kJUMP]

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I wonder how many of those doctors subscribe to an anti-oil agenda for Canada?

Do people want to know what happens when they are idealists about Canada's climate change plans and how we actually generate wealth in this country?

It means 5 minutes less with your doctor.

It's interesting how you distilled this entire complex health system issue down to oil and climate change. I wonder if there are any other factors that could have a role. On the flipside, one could argue that having a PST for example could result in having an extra 5 minutes with all of our doctors.

[dirtsniffer]

No matter how much the government takes from us they will always find ways to spend more then that

[Buster]

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It's interesting how you distilled this entire complex health system issue down to oil and climate change. I wonder if there are any other factors that could have a role. On the flipside, one could argue that having a PST for example could result in having an extra 5 minutes with all of our doctors.

PST is paid for by the wealth creation of the private sector. The money transferred to the government from a PST doesn't get created out of thin air.

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This is exactly it. It's rewarding doctors who spend the least amount of time possible with their patients and punishing those who work with vulnerable populations who need more than 10 minutes at a time.

That's the whole point. You can't save money on people who aren't costing the system anything. You have to save money on the things that are costing money - high maintenance patients.

[dubhead]

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Doctors' skills are highly transferable. Why dont they moved somewhere else? Why the complaints?

They can and they will, patients will suffer as a result. Then in the end after all the bad faith negotiations and the realization that we are running low on Doctors we will have to pay them more than other jurisdictions to lure them back.

It's like those who don't pay attention to history are doomed to repeat it or something like that

[Buster]

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They can and they will, patients will suffer as a result. Then in the end after all the bad faith negotiations and the realization that we are running low on Doctors we will have to pay them more than other jurisdictions to lure them back.

It's like those who don't pay attention to history are doomed to repeat it or something like that

Or we will get some price discovery on what doctors are willing to be paid to stay in Alberta

[ExtraSlow]

we did at one point have a shortage of family doctors in Alberta. I don't recall what the pay structure was at that point, or how it changed over time since then.

[blitz]

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PST is paid for by the wealth creation of the private sector. The money transferred to the government from a PST doesn't get created out of thin air.

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That's the whole point. You can't save money on people who aren't costing the system anything. You have to save money on the things that are costing money - high maintenance patients.

Denying preventative care to at risk people is a great way to increase costs.

This is a really stupid way to reduce costs, that will most likely reduce overall quality of care, and lead to higher reliance on them emergency room and police services.

[msommers]

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we did at one point have a shortage of family doctors in Alberta. I don't recall what the pay structure was at that point, or how it changed over time since then.

There was a SIGNIFICANT push at UofC to enroll people who were intending to do Family Med. In the end it really did help the province fill a void. Can't comment on pay but being a rural Family MD is busy, and well paying with other perks, particularly helping out with loans.

[killramos]

I should have just taken medicine, seems to be the only profession in Canada where people don’t hate you for being well paid.

Hell, random people on the internet will even get up in arms arguing on your behalf to get paid more at their expense. And thank you for it

Keeping peoples homes heated, cars fueled, and plastics plentiful is overrated.

[msommers]

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I should have just taken medicine,

Easier said than done!

[e31]

I haven't thought this idea thru just yet...

Implement a "revenue neutral" pay cut on healthcare workers exactly the same amount as their union dues. In return for no job losses.

Workers wages stay the same (if they choose), discretionary slave "tribute" disappears = Churches/Unions disappear, gov't revenue net savings. Win, Win, Win.

[Misterman]

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It's interesting how you distilled this entire complex health system issue down to oil and climate change. I wonder if there are any other factors that could have a role. On the flipside, one could argue that having a PST for example could result in having an extra 5 minutes with all of our doctors.

Why wouldn't you break it down to it's simplest form? That's how you solve problems generally.

This is because of money pure and simple. If the government wasn't bleeding cash, they wouldn't be trying to cut healthcare. So why are we bleeding money? Simple, we can't get our resources developed and keep people working. If the rest of the country just believed in science and quit fighting resource development due to some mythical climate change boogeyman, we could all live happily ever after.

Just trying to charge more every time you run out of money is not a long term solution.

[ExtraSlow]

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Easier said than done!

Have you met that dude? He's very smart (in addition to being handsome)

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I haven't thought this idea thru just yet...

Implement a "revenue neutral" pay cut on healthcare workers exactly the same amount as their union dues. In return for no job losses.

Workers wages stay the same (if they choose), discretionary slave "tribute" disappears = Churches/Unions disappear, gov't revenue net savings. Win, Win, Win.

That is two things. 1) not enough money and 2) illegal, as unions are protected in many ways under the laws of this country.