Managing renovations - Self manage vs General Contractor

[Mitsu3000gt]

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LOL really? See your post below. Telling people to avoid any gc because of your couple incidents is pretty much saying theyre all the same no?
I dont know why you keep arguing because your experiences with GC's was not even the norm, you had to pick from a small list of contractors that you didnt get to research, you had a bunch of other owners just wanting the work done so they rushed it and in the end it wasnt even your OWN choice who to hire because there mustve been a vote or something with so many people involved. The reason you had 3 bad experiences is because you pretty much had little to no say about who to hire each time

I said I personally would avoid GC's (I did not say "you" or "everyone" or "people" should avoid GC's" like you accused me of). You further assumed that they were all the same contractor. My experience is based on multiple unique accounts using both GC's and individuals. I feel like I explained why pretty thoroughly. Sorry if you misunderstood something. As I have also said multiple times now, YMMV and I'm sure there are exceptions everywhere but that has been my experience. I have only had bad experiences with GC's and only good experience with individuals, so for my next job I will hire an individual again for all of the less specialized work. Someone who had an amazing experience with a GC would probably go the GC route - I don't get what's hard to understand about that. We're all just here sharing our experiences for the benefit of the OP, he can weigh them and make up his own mind. Anyways you seem rather passionate about this issue that is of incredibly minor importance, so I assume you are a GC or have one in the family? If so I did not mean to offend.

Regardless of how they came about, if you have had multiple bad experiences with option A and only good experiences with option B, what are you going to pick next time? I don't think it's that hard to see my side of things based on my experiences. I'm not going to roll the dice on something that important.

[Rocket1k78]

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I said I personally would avoid GC's (I did not say "you" or "everyone" or "people" should avoid GC's" like you accused me of). You further assumed that they were all the same contractor. My experience is based on multiple unique accounts using both GC's and individuals. I feel like I explained why pretty thoroughly. Sorry if you misunderstood something. As I have also said multiple times now, YMMV and I'm sure there are exceptions everywhere but that has been my experience. I have only had bad experiences with GC's and only good experience with individuals, so for my next job I will hire an individual again for all of the less specialized work. Someone who had an amazing experience with a GC would probably go the GC route - I don't get what's hard to understand about that. We're all just here sharing our experiences for the benefit of the OP, he can weigh them and make up his own mind. Anyways you seem rather passionate about this issue that is of incredibly minor importance, so I assume you are a GC or have one in the family? If so I did not mean to offend.

Regardless of how they came about, if you have had multiple bad experiences with option A and only good experiences with option B, what are you going to pick next time? I don't think it's that hard to see my side of things based on my experiences. I'm not going to roll the dice on something that important.

Its a slow day so please forgive me for all this lol
Doesnt really matter how you say it but coming into a thread and saying you would avoid gc's and stating that most do cheap work is going to give some people the thought that they really are all no good. Theres nothing wrong with posting experiences and giving feedback but i dont agree with your post and to most its not comparable. You might have had 3 different bad experiences with gc's in your building but of the 3 how many did you get to go out and hand pick vs. having multiple owners vote from a pre selected list?

My bad for keeping this going but i just dont find it fair to post your personal experiences when you didnt really get to choose the crew to do the work. I also have a feeling you're one of "those customers" lol

Sorry for the jack OP.

[Mitsu3000gt]

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Its a slow day so please forgive me for all this lol
Doesnt really matter how you say it but coming into a thread and saying you would avoid gc's and stating that most do cheap work is going to give some people the thought that they really are all no good. Theres nothing wrong with posting experiences and giving feedback but i dont agree with your post and to most its not comparable. You might have had 3 different bad experiences with gc's in your building but of the 3 how many did you get to go out and hand pick vs. having multiple owners vote from a pre selected list?

My bad for keeping this going but i just dont find it fair to post your personal experiences when you didnt really get to choose the crew to do the work. I also have a feeling you're one of "those customers" lol

Sorry for the jack OP.

Why are my experiences invalid? 18 combined months (3 separate incidents X approx. 6 months each) with trades coming in and out of my house and dealing with the GC is not enough experience for you? I'd venture a guess that is probably more experience than most others have (or want, for that matter). We used large GC's that anyone could go out and hire, and they give you the same song & dance that every GC would regarding quality, timely completions, etc. It's very hard to know if it's all BS or not until after you've already hired them. I am guessing most people do not physically visit their previous work sites, and therefore wouldn't have had much more to go on than we did (the guy's word basically). Our condo management company also vouched for these guys, claimed to have been happy with them for previous similar work, etc. which I know went a long way towards convincing some board members.

If you think I am one of "those" customers, I will post some pictures and you can let me know if the work (and property damage) I received would be acceptable in your home

[ExtraSlow]

Your experience is invalid because it contradicts his opinion. That's how the internet works.

[Mitsu3000gt]

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Your experience is invalid because it contradicts his opinion. That's how the internet works.

That is quite clear to me now

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I also have a feeling you're one of "those customers"

This level of work would all be acceptable in your own home then I take it? Or would you just sign off and pay the bill with a smile on your face to avoid being one of "those customers"?

Keep in mind this work was all billed as complete, and is only a small sample:




Much of my floor looked like this:


They tried to tell me this was the same transition (the hardwood manufacturer confirmed it was not - it is a different size, shape, stain, and grain), and then to "fix" it, they came into my house, and taped up all my transitions with painters tape just to make me think they did work and I wouldn't notice a second time that they in fact did nothing. Afterwards they walked up and destroyed my security camera, and the last 10 seconds of audio before it died recorded them saying "good thing you found that".



Cabinet trim:


Cabinet backing:


Transition:

[suntan]

Did you pay them?

[Mitsu3000gt]

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Did you pay them?

They got something from my building's insurance company, I have no idea what. In this instance, 13 units flooded including mine, and they were awarded the contract for the complete renovation. The building's insurance company was paying, so by not signing I maintained the only piece of leverage I had (if anyone else find themselves in this situation, DO NOT sign anything until you are 100% satisfied). I never signed off on the work until they were 100% gone and I was paid. I asked for a payout equal to what it would cost me to have it re-done properly plus to repair all the damage they did (they scratched the sh*t out of my my beer fridge too), to replace my security camera, and for what it cost me to change my locks. As soon as they found out I had a security camera, they paid me immediately without even seeing the footage which tells me they already knew what kind of people they were sending to the job site. Then I had it all fixed in very short order on my own, as I was tired of living in a construction zone for ~6 months give or take. And this happened two other times over a period of 7 years - the floods were always the fault of an individual leaving a window open in the winter, nothing to do with the building. Dealing with those trades were probably the biggest headaches and highest stress times in my life to date.

Another fun fact about these types of claims, they only have to restore your place to original spec, so if you did any upgrades or renos yourself in the interim, you don't get those back - you get whatever the building had in it when it was built (or something of the same value). There is also zero punishment laid on the offending unit who is responsible for things like this.

But what do I know, my experiences with GC's and their trades are invalid

[Rocket1k78]

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Why are my experiences invalid? 18 combined months (3 separate incidents X approx. 6 months each) with trades coming in and out of my house and dealing with the GC is not enough experience for you?

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of the 3 how many did you get to go out and hand pick vs. having multiple owners vote from a pre selected list?

OP has full choice to research and pick any GC out there and the most important part is he gets the FINAL say. Since you wont answer my question about how many you personally got to research/pick yourself is it safe to assume none since this was a condo? You said so yourself you had a limited list to choose from and even if you found one you wanted(out of a pre selected list)you didnt get the final say because it was most likely voted on right? The reason you had 18 months/3 separate bad experiences is because you didnt get to research and pick the crew you wanted, not your fault at all of course.

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Your experience is invalid because it contradicts his opinion. That's how the internet works.

Contradictions and false advice is what makes the internet go round righthttps://forums.beyond.ca/threads/407...27#post4729427

[bjstare]

So in summary, the take home point here is: don't buy a condo.

[ExtraSlow]

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Contradictions and false advice is what makes the internet go round righthttps://forums.beyond.ca/threads/407...27#post4729427

Yes.

[Rocket1k78]

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So in summary, the take home point here is: don't buy a condo.

BAHAHAHAHA well played. Condo life can be nice and even though you own the place you kinda dont with all the rules.

[Mitsu3000gt]

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OP has full choice to research and pick any GC out there and the most important part is he gets the FINAL say. Since you wont answer my question about how many you personally got to research/pick yourself is it safe to assume none since this was a condo? You said so yourself you had a limited list to choose from and even if you found one you wanted(out of a pre selected list)you didnt get the final say because it was most likely voted on right? The reason you had 18 months/3 separate bad experiences is because you didnt get to research and pick the crew you wanted, not your fault at all of course.
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I didn't have a final say in anything - I mentioned before I didn't have veto power. The only power I really had was refusing to sign anything until the work was done right, and it never was, so I eventually took payouts. The board gets identical presentations from a handful of GC's and has to pick one, it might as well have been at random. The board was given a handful of GC's recommended by our Management Company and insurance company due to apparent positive previous experiences, if I recall it was 3-5 each time. We had a policy that we never made any decision before evaluating at least 3 options. We met each one (they personally came in to assess the units including mine and I had long conversations with all of them), saw photo books of their work which show zero detail, photocopied referrals from previous clients, etc. They aren't going to give you referrals without knowing it will be positive so those are kind of useless anyway. They all presented themselves well and swore up & down about how good they were - and maybe they were, the problem is these guys never set foot in your home again. They could also show me some amazing work they did 5 years ago, but if the subs who did it have different employees now, it is completely worthless. There's just too many moving parts to really do excellent due diligence, at least within the realm of reasonableness. I did not originally object to the GC's we chose, like I said it might as well have been at random because they all give you identical presentations about how good they are.

Visiting peoples homes they previously worked on and tracking down their individual subcontractors is not a reasonable thing to do, and they likely wouldn't share those names with us anyhow - as soon as they control what you get to see, that referral loses all it's weight. Had I gone out and picked a different company, they would have given us the identical song & dance. At the end of it all, in my mind each GC had an equal chance of being good or bad because they all show and tell you the EXACT same things. I can't honestly say I wouldn't have picked the same one if it was solely my decision because there was nothing distinguishing them. We did not pick the cheapest one either, hoping quality would be a bit better. And since they subcontract, if those subcontractor's staff changes (sometimes they sub-sub contract so far that it's like Inception) even the GC might not know that his staff has changed from competent to incompetent. There is only so much you can do. The fact that we got burned 3 times in a row at least tells me that there are a lot of bad trades out there and it's difficult to be confident in your choice when every single one has the exact same presentation for you.

I also wasn't the only one complaining, everyone had issues, some even worse than mine. I'm sure they hated re-doing much of their work, who wouldn't? but nobody in their right mind would have accepted that quality of work, so of course they are going to have to come back and re-do it, and each time they do I'm sure they are even less motivated to do a good job. They never sent new guys to re-do the work, always the same guys who didn't do it properly the first time around.

What would you have suggested we did differently? Track down the addresses of their previous clients and find out which individuals working for their subs were still working for them, and then check out those individuals' work? That would probably be the only way to know for sure. If you just meet with the GC, they aren't going to show you a single thing that doesn't paint them in the best light. We could have interviewed 50 more GC's and we would have got 50 more identical presentations with photo books, referrals, etc. that THEY control. All the while we have over a dozen people out of their homes wondering when renovations will start and the insurance companies paying for some people to live in hotels, so you can't spend 6 months tracking down every sub from every GC.

When you have dozens of guys working ultra-high turnover sub (or sub-sub) trade jobs, it's extremely difficult to do proper due diligence and be comfortable with quality control. From what I saw, it looked like they sub-contracted down to the fresh out of high school / FOB level or whatever level would accept the lowest pay (which doesn't matter if they do good work but they didn't) for maximum cost savings. Because it was a bigger job, maybe they thought they could get away with sending us their B-team, who knows.

And yes, to cjblair's point, this is one reason I probably will never buy a condo again At least not one with baseboard hot water heating.

[Rocket1k78]

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I didn't have a final say in anything

And that was my whole point.

[Mitsu3000gt]

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And that was my whole point.

Did you bother to read what I wrote? My decision wouldn't have been any different even if I did because everyone gives you the exact same presentation and will only show you materials and references that paint them in the best possible light. We picked from multiple GC's and we did not ever pick the cheapest one. Nobody is going to give you a complete customer list and let you pick at random someone to call for a reference, or give you a list of their sub contractors so you can chase down every single individual and check their work also at random.

You also did not answer my question - all this and you have not offered a single suggestion on what could be done differently when every GC gives you the exact same song & dance, has a revolving door of subs, etc. All you've done is tell me that after all my experience and detailed explanation, it's somehow completely invalid because it differs from your personal opinion Ok then.

[Rocket1k78]

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Did you bother to read what I wrote? My decision wouldn't have been any different even if I did because everyone gives you the exact same presentation and will only show you materials and references that paint them in the best possible light. We picked from multiple GC's and we did not ever pick the cheapest one. Nobody is going to give you a complete customer list and let you pick at random someone to call for a reference, or give you a list of their sub contractors so you can chase down every single individual and check their work also at random.

You also did not answer my question - all this and you have not offered a single suggestion on what could be done differently when every GC gives you the exact same song & dance, has a revolving door of subs, etc. All you've done is tell me that after all my experience and detailed explanation, it's somehow completely invalid because it differs from your personal opinion Ok then.

Lets say you're craving breakfast bad and you decide to go on a guided breakfast tour of Calgary with a bunch of random people and i only gave you guys dennys, humptys or mcdonalds as choices, then you guys all had to vote or pull straws to decide which one. While the straws are being pulled you have people who are starving and just want to eat so theyre just picking the fastest option without realizing how good the food will be. And since no one read the fine print of my tour i only list mediocre restaurants because i want to keep my costs down. While the restaurant is trying to serve your large group there are multiple people complaining its taking too long so the staff have no choice but to rush and are getting fed up too so service is going to suffer. Do you think you're going to have a good breakfast and would it be fair to say all breakfast places suck?

There was not a thing you could've done differently because you live in a condo and when it comes to things like this your hands are beyond tied and you dont have the same choices as a home owner would.

[msommers]

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So in summary, the take home point here is: don't buy a condo.

From what I know now... absolutely. I'll never tell my kids to buy a condo, save more and buy a house instead. Condo fees and not really living in your own space has killed condo living for me. Maybe if I was in a baller high-rise with a 30th floor view facing the mountains it'd be alright but for us plebs, it's more annoying than anything.

More to the OP, I had an insurance claim through our building's insirance as one pipe had a small leak and destroyed a small section of flooring. I didn't get to choose who they sent out to do the job but I did get great guys so it all depends.

Lots of great tradespeople out there and a family friend of ours design and gc homes. They almost closed up shop because they were fixing so many contractors mistakes themselves. Now they have a solid crew and are so much less stressed - reliable and consistent work makes everyone happy.

So whether GC or individual trades, it comes down to reputation. Depending on the size of the job I'd probably hire a reputable GC than attempt to find multiple reliable trades.

I can see why Mitsu is mad, that kind of work would make my blood boil too.

[bjstare]

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From what I know now... absolutely. I'll never tell my kids to buy a condo, save more and buy a house instead. Condo fees and not really living in your own space has killed condo living for me. Maybe if I was in a baller high-rise with a 30th floor view facing the mountains it'd be alright but for us plebs, it's more annoying than anything.

That's what my parents did for me. My dad taught me to avoid them like the plague. After owning my first home, I thought it'd be a good idea to buy a unit in an infill 4-plex that was run with a tiny little HOA (the 4 owners); he tried to warn me about it, but I thought it'd be fine. ffwd a few months, and you guessed it, he was right - that place had more than it's fair share of headaches. Sold it and bought a house again after 18 months.

Not saying condos don't work for some people. I just know they don't work for me.

[CompletelyNumb]

I can confirm everything mitsu has posted here as being my experience with condos as well.

The dude rebutting him is either just a troll, or has a lottery win of luck in his own condo.

[Buster]

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That's what my parents did for me. My dad taught me to avoid them like the plague. After owning my first home, I thought it'd be a good idea to buy a unit in an infill 4-plex that was run with a tiny little HOA (the 4 owners); he tried to warn me about it, but I thought it'd be fine. ffwd a few months, and you guessed it, he was right - that place had more than it's fair share of headaches. Sold it and bought a house again after 18 months.

Not saying condos don't work for some people. I just know they don't work for me.

Yup

I'm surprised at how many people are willing to spend $1.5MM or more on a house that shares a wall, just to be inner city. Never, never, never.

[ExtraSlow]

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Yup

I'm surprised at how many people are willing to spend $1.5MM or more on a house that shares a wall, just to be inner city. Never, never, never.

I didn't spend anything like $1.5m, not even half that, but to be honest, sharing a wall has been a total non-issue with my duplex house. Can't hear anything from neighbors.